I always loved Logan Reed from afar. I first laid eyes on her at her father, Chris Reed’s, funeral in June 2019. I saw her strength as she delivered the eulogy for a man I truly loved as a friend and mentor. I can only sympathize with Logan’s pain of losing a parent at such a young age, a parent who was her soulmate and her best friend in life. I know so many of us out there have experienced loss and don’t know where to find the strength to carry on. Logan talks to us about her abusive relationship that took a huge toll on her recovery, not only in grief but in addiction. A few short months after Chris’s passing, Logan unexpectedly fell pregnant, and she knew life was about to change for her radically, yet again. So grab a box of tissues for this one, besties: Logan’s perseverance, poise, and sense of family are what saved her, and it will save you, too. And although her journey to healing will be long and arduous, there’s a sweet spot at the end of the rainbow.

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Grieving The Sudden And Tragic Loss Of A Parent In Your 20s With Logan Reed

I hope that you are having a great day. We have an amazing guest as usual. We have Logan Reed on the show. Logan and I met through her father, Chris Reed, who passed in 2019 in a freak accident. I will be honest, I want you to learn more about the show. She and I have become close friends. Over the years, we have spoken about grief and motherhood as she became a mother to her beautiful daughter, Charlie. We have spoken about starting our own businesses, working from home, creating your own income and being your own boss.

You are going to enjoy and be touched deeply by this episode. It is a little bit of a tear-jerker but it’s important to talk about this extremely important pillar in our community and her beautiful daughter. She has gone out on a limb here to speak out about her father’s passing for the first time. She truly was someone who was important to the Houston community and beyond. Without further ado, let’s get into the show with Logan Reed.

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I have a special guest with me. Welcome Logan Reed to the show, everyone. Logan, how are you?

I’m doing good. How are you?

I’m great. Thank you so much for coming on and spending time with me.

Thank you for having me. I am super flattered.

I am flattered that you accepted. I told you this last time we spoke when I invited you to the show. I have been gently stalking you for a couple of years because of many reasons. Firstly, you are stunning. You are such a beautiful mom. You light up a room. You have great energy. I want to tell the audience how we met and that is through your dad, Chris Reed. Your dad is not with us anymore but he was an absolute inspiration to many people. That was incredibly evident in his passing. Can you talk to us a little bit about your dad? What kind of dad he was, and all of those things that you and I spoke about before over the internet when we were talking about him? Can you touch on that a little bit?

My dad was the most involved father you could ever imagine. He coached every single sporting event I had other than cheerleading because he was not about that but he was at every game. He was the most involved dad ever. He was the person that believed in me so much to the point where I couldn’t help but believe in myself. I had so much work and so much to offer the world and that was that. I was going to become this amazing person. He manifested it for me almost. He spoke it in my ears every day to the point where growing up, I felt pretty cocky. I felt like, “I own this.”

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He makes you feel like you can be anybody you want to be no matter who you are, where you came from, whatever. He was an amazing dad. He was always there if I needed a shoulder to cry on. If I wanted to celebrate something happy, he was there. That’s the kind of dad he was. Apparently, which I didn’t even know until he passed and people started coming out of the woodworks and telling me their stories and their personal experiences with him, he was similar to everybody else.

He was a good father figure or a mentor, especially those that lack self-esteem, financial means or struggled with life where they had substance abuse. He loved working with those underdogs and with those people who are struggling because maybe he struggled back. He gravitated towards those people and he changed their lives. I don’t know a single person that met him that didn’t say, “I went to college because of him. I started my business because of him. I’ve got out of bed because of him.”

That must be amazing to hear about your father.

It helps the grief process significantly.

I met Chris when I was a former MMA journalist. I was assigned to interview him for one of the fights that he had locally here for the Legacy Fighting Championship. I attended the fight and I was always rooting for him. It was his hobby. When your dad was like, “I’m going to go fight MMA,” what did you think about that?

I was fairly young. He started with Judo. He started with that scene. I thought it was cool. I didn’t think anything of it. All of a sudden, he’s like, “There’s Mixed Martial Arts.” I’m like, “UFC?” He’s like, “It’s not UFC, Logan. It’s MMA. It’s Mixed Martial Arts.” I see pictures and stuff of his training and I’m like, “This is hardcore.” He was a heavier guy. He was always at least 200 pounds or above. He had a wrestling background and he was good at wrestling, grappling and being on the ground. He didn’t want to be up in boxing. He wanted to be on the ground. He wanted to do takedowns.

The best way to do that is you don’t want to fight in the heavier classes. I’m sure you know all this. He’s like, “Dieting is hardcore.” I remember there would be days before his fight and all he would eat is celery and bell peppers. People come over and do the little water IVs to help them stay hydrated because he’s swishing water in his mouth and spitting it out. I’m like, “This is horrible.”

It’s hardcore.

I only went to one fight because I was not a fan.

 

It’s hard to watch people you love to fight.

What’s weird about it is I wasn’t ever worried about him. You would think, “I didn’t want to see somebody punch him or hurt him.” It’s because I always saw him as some superhero, somebody who could not be touched or defeated. Even though he had lost a fight or two, I thought he was invincible. I was always worried about the other person and I didn’t want to watch him kick somebody’s ass. I was terrified of it. I’m cringing. I always had faith in my dad. I always thought he was going to win every fight. I couldn’t watch the gruesomeness of it. I was always on standby waiting to hear if he won or not. I wasn’t a fan of going to those.

That’s funny. I didn’t know that you only went to one fight.

I have watched a few live in a way that I was like this the whole time, “Uhm.”

He also refereed a lot of fights as well.

He loved doing that. I didn’t go to any of those. That was when I went to college. I was always away from home. They were in other places. It could be in Louisiana or wherever where he would be.

To let the audience know, your dad had a lot of hats. He was the Chief of Police for Kemah PD. Kemah is another area of Houston. It’s a little bit further away. It’s near the water for those who don’t know where Kemah is. He was on the board of CCISD, a pillar of his community, and a helper of the underdog or anyone who needed a hand. Personally, I went through a lot of bullying in the Mixed Martial Arts community. Everybody was talking shit because I was young, I was a girl and I was pretty.

They are probably being nasty. That’s why he never wanted me to be around because he was like, “They don’t have filters and they will go after you.”

I had a guy who solicited me to hang out with me, to sleep with me. I told him to fuck off and he spread a rumor about me that I was racist and I was sleeping with everybody. That’s when your dad stepped in and he was like, “Never let anybody tell you who you are. You know who you are. You are not a slut or a racist. Why are you letting them tell you that?” That stuck with me and that’s something I say even now. Can you walk me through what happened to your dad and the events that led up to his passing?

It was Friday afternoon and he was working over in Kemah. He had half days most Fridays because that’s how he did it in Kemah, a lot of people would get off early. He liked having that available for everybody. His favorite thing to do because it was June, is to go fishing. He got a boat months before that. I don’t remember how because I wasn’t living at home early or anything. I was around but I was dating somebody at the time so I was living with him. It was like any other day, he and my mom planned to go out on a boat that early afternoon so they did. My mom packed the cooler, they’ve got ready and got on a boat. I was going to meet them eventually.

A couple of events occurred where I kept getting pushed back to the time I was supposed to meet them. They kept going out. Now that everything’s happened, I sometimes wonder, “Did that happen for a reason?” They were out and about on the boat fishing. My dad loved to fish. My mom sat out there on the back laying. She loves a suntan. If you haven’t ever seen her, she’s brown. She’s tan. She’s reading her book.

Eventually, they are riding along. I don’t know because I wasn’t there. There was a big barge, one of those big travel channel boats that drove by going well over the speed limit and creating incredibly massive wakes. I don’t know if you have ever seen YouTube videos of wake surfing but they are enormous. They are not meant for little tiny fishing boats like the one my parents were on to endure out of nowhere. That’s what happened.

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It got him off track and my mom said, “Chris, I’m scared.” It was getting rough and choppy and the boat was hitting bricks. He said something like, “Jana, it’s going to be okay.” A second later, he was ejected off the boat. My dad was the strongest man I knew. He had been caught on fire and shot in the line of duty. He survived so many things and he’s the strongest and toughest human I know. I know that those waters had to have been something incredible and something nobody could have survived because it’s shocking that he didn’t.

The waves rushed to my mom. My mom got back on the steering wheel, reversed it back, and tried to find wherever he was. When you are out in the water, you have no idea where you are or where the last thing is. It’s just water. She sees his head come up and she tries to help him by throwing a safety rope and he was unable to get his arms out from the current. Another big wake went over his head and he went back under.

I can’t imagine your mom.

He said something like, “I can’t reach. I can’t get it. I can’t get my arms out of the water.” It has been hard on all his kids and everyone in general. I can’t even imagine the burden that she holds having to physically witness it. She’s even mentioned, “I feel like it was meant to be that you weren’t on that boat that day or you weren’t able to make it. I know, without a doubt, I would have said, ‘Logan, jump in. Go get him,’” and I would have because I grew up a strong swimmer. I was swimming in college. I would have never thought for a second. She’s like, “You could have been gone, too.”

It’s crazy. It was a wild day. I was on the highway headed to their house. My mom calls me on my dad’s phone and she’s screaming hysterically and screaming his name over and over. I’m like, “What’s going on? Can you calm down? I have no idea what’s going on.” I hear another person talking through the phone and it’s 911. They are asking for location and all that. She’s screaming. She’s completely out of it, confused, scared and alone. At that moment, I figured out what happened without her even saying it. She kept saying, “Logan, I can’t see your dad.” I remember feeling him slip away.

Did you felt it?

I felt it. I was close to my dad. Something in me was like, “He’s gone.”

I would be like you. I would throw myself in the water and not even think twice. Your mom honestly was thinking, “I have children. If I throw myself in, what’s going to happen?”

She’s 4’11” and 110 pounds. How is she going to save a 250-pound man?

 

The fact that she had the presence of mind to think about that is insane to me. That takes strength for your mom. I can’t even imagine. I remember when I heard what had happened, everyone was like, “He was alone.” He was with your mom. There are all these different stories and trying to figure out what has happened. Logically, you think about why she can’t throw herself in. I was thinking exactly what you said. I was like, “That man is invincible.” For him to be taken under, that must have been something unsurvivable. They searched for him and it was for three days.

It was about two days. It happened on Friday and they found him on Sunday, mid-morning.

Tell me that beautiful story about when they found him though.

They found him probably so soon and I’m grateful. Two days-ish is relatively quick compared to how long it usually takes for people to be found in those murky waters because they can be taken off easily. Many teams were put together for him. It was incredible. The guy who found him was the man who runs EquuSearch.

He has a beautiful but tragic story of himself because he’s making something out of it. He located my father relatively close to the area that he fell over and he was surrounded by dolphins. It was almost like they were protecting him from other creatures, from anything. It was honestly beautiful to hear that. I have been pretty obsessed with dolphins since.

He was protected by angels. Didn’t they say something about dolphins being angels? I heard something about that.

They are so much like humans. I felt like they sensed what had happened. It was like, “This person was not supposed to be floating here alone in the dark water. Let’s get together.”

You already know that he had passed because you felt it in your bones. You still had the hope, I’m sure but you knew already. When you’ve got the news, were you numb? Were you immediately emotional? How did you react? What was your grief like?

I was numb. I had already known so I was already processing or trying to grasp it. I was honestly trying to keep it together. If something makes me mad, I’m mad. Something that came out of me during grieving was anger. Everyone was making me frustrated and annoyed because a lot of people were at our house and a lot of people were trying to help. It was amazing but I did not take it well. It’s too much for me and I came off awful. I feel bad. I had a family who I yelled at a few times. I had said things that I shouldn’t have said. Everybody was hoping. Everybody was holding on.

I looked at what they were saying, it was like a joke. I’m like, “How could you even say he’s floating on something out there? My mom watched him go under.” I’m being logic-minded, which is unusual because I’m usually emotionally minded. I was like, “I don’t feel him now. I feel that he is not earthside anymore. We need to be locating his body. We need to be moving on from there and doing what he wants with that and celebrating his life.”

You were pretty much pissed off because everyone was like, “No, he’s going to be okay.” You are like, “Let’s be real about this.”

I was like, “I don’t mean to not hold on to hope and I don’t mean to sound like a bitch but I don’t feel him anymore and I want to start grieving for him.” It almost felt like I wasn’t allowed to feel sad over his death because it didn’t happen yet but it did. I wanted to cry, scream, and punch a wall because he died but everybody was like, “Hold on to hope, Logan.” That’s not something that anyone who’s grieving wants to hear, whether you are grieving a loved one, a disease or over a breakup, nobody wants to hear things like that.

When you did get the news and you were able to start grieving, you gave a beautiful eulogy. Your whole family looked gorgeous. I don’t know how but you guys looked strong, united and put together. It was a beautiful service. After you’ve got through that, people come into the house to pay their respects, bringing gifts, probably food and all that. After all of that died down, you and I talked about this a little bit but how did you start to cope with your grief.

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Unfortunately, I immediately started to turn into things that would numb me. I did not like feeling the way I felt. It was unreal. I’m still having a hard time facing it. I would do anything to stop crying and to stop playing the image in my head that my mom had given me of him because it was haunting. I didn’t want to feel angry. I didn’t want to feel. I started drinking heavily. I had never been a drinker. I barely drank. Even in college. I would go to parties but I never was a drinker.

All of a sudden, that was the one thing I wanted to do. It made me feel better and forget things but then it didn’t because it’s a depressant and it makes you feel worse the next day and it causes you to drink more. I learned that later on, it’s an ugly cycle. I started coping with using substances and drinking to numb the pain. I did everything my dad would have been upset with me for doing. I know he raised me better than that and he raised me to be stronger.

Did you feel any anger directed at your dad?

No. I never felt anger. I felt a lot of anger and guilt toward myself because we had been head-butting in the weeks before because I was in an ugly relationship that was no good for me. It was toxic. Everything in my life was going down, even my career and everything because I was stuck in that relationship. He was like, “Logan. It’s a guy. You are stronger than this. You are better than this. I raised you better.” I would be the typical girl stuck in a situation like that and I would be like, “I love him.” This is a story for a whole other time.

I was totally gaslighted and blind to everything that was going on. I felt guilty that I didn’t spend more time with him. I felt like this guy was more important than my relationship with my father. I felt guilty and I wish I would have known. Nobody knows, you can never predict something like that. Now I know you don’t take time with your loved ones for granted because you never know. Spend it with those who care about you, love you and want good for you. That’s what I’m trying to do with my life now so I don’t have any more regrets like that and I can live my happiest life.

You mentioned the substances and being depressed. That’s pretty normal. How did you come out of that? What happened? How long did this take? How long did that last?

That lasted about six months probably. There was no sight of me stopping. I was miserable. Doing the drugs and alcohol was not making me feel better but it was distracting. It was a good distraction but it was ruining a lot of other things in life and everything was going downhill. I was not going to stop. I was not planning on stopping no matter who asked me.

I found out I was pregnant. That was the one thing I kept thinking, “What’s going to stop me? Nothing is going to stop me.” You don’t stop until you want to and I didn’t want to. I didn’t care if I pass away. I was being irrational and pretty dramatic, honestly. I immediately re-evaluated everything I was doing, all the behavior I was condoning and being a part of. I’ve got out of it and I stopped. I’ve got out of that toxic relationship, finally, because I wasn’t going to leave that one either.

It hit me that I was like, “It’s one thing if this man is treating me like this and abusing me like this but it’s another if he does that to my child, especially if she’s unborn.” I didn’t know if she’s a boy or a girl. I was not even going to take the chance. The baby is a miracle. I felt like it was a gift from my father to start over to get my shit together. I’m taking it and running with it. I’m going to do the best I can with it. This is my new purpose. This is what I was meant to do.

 

My dad was always my direction. I lost my direction when he was gone. He signed me up for my college classes and picked the classes even. He made all the decisions of my life mostly. I feel like it was him handpicking, giving me Charlie and being like, “Here’s your next adventure. Go with this and see what you can do with this.”

Ironically, Charlie comes out looking straight up like your dad.

She does look a lot like him. She has squinty eyes when she smiles, a big face and a great personality. She was such a fun baby to be around. I couldn’t even complain. I was saying that she was a handful earlier but it was because she was crying because she had been playing by herself for an hour. A one-year-old plays by themselves for an hour. I’m over here going, “I’ve got to get more things done.” I’m like, “No, you are fine.”

You are a relatively young mother. Was there ever a time where you debated keeping Charlie when you first found out? Did you debate on that?

Yes. The only reason I would ever not keep her would be if I knew I had caused some serious and detrimental damage to her, her health and her well-being because of my activities. I had no idea for a while. I was doing God knows what. I was concerned about that. Other than that, I knew I could not do it because I wasn’t ready or because I was like, “I can’t allow another death this year. I cannot handle it. I’m already suffering from this one. Do you think I will survive getting rid of a baby? No, I can’t.”

The only thing was if the doctor was like, “Your baby might not make it full-term because you did some serious damage.” That was the only reason for considering it. From the moment I heard her heartbeat at the doctor’s, I realized that my life was going to be changed and for the good. I finally felt excited for the future instead of fearful.

What a relief.

It was relieving.

Would you say that Charlie saved your life?

Yes, 100%.

That’s beautiful. I completely agree with you that that’s a gift from your dad, for sure. He was involved somehow. He was up there with God and he’s like, “Come over here. We’ve got to talk.”

It was crazy because we talked the night before because he was lecturing me. I haven’t told a lot of people this because I was pretty ashamed that I was behaving to the point where he had to sit me down and give a lecture at 25 or 26. He’s like, “Logan, I don’t know what to tell you anymore. You are making decisions and going down a path. I don’t know what to say anymore. I feel like I have said everything I said, and done everything I have done. It’s going to have to be something big that’s going to change your life. Other than that, I don’t know. It has to be something big.” I kept remembering him saying that. When he passed, I thought, “Maybe that’s what it was.” The next day, hours later, he passed away, I plummeted. I was way worse than I ever was. When I found out I was pregnant, I was like, “This is it. He gave me this. This was the one big thing.”

How did you pick the name Charlie Bell?

Charlie is after Charles because my dad’s name is Charles. I love unisex names. Bell took a while. I could not pick a middle name to save my life. I wanted it to be girly because her name would be Charlie Reed, which is my grandfather’s name as well. I was like, “We need something to make it girly.” I love Southern. We are from the South. I grew up in the Southside so I want it to be Southern and have a twang to it.

It popped up in my head one day. I was bartending, I was pregnant and it was during COVID. I was doing miscellaneous things here and there to make some money. I was serving one day and the guy was asking me and I wrote down all the middle names I was considering and we were like, “Bell, that’s the one.” I was like, “I’m going for it. Finally, I’m making a decision.”

I love it. It fits her perfectly.

She is a Charlie.

How did your mum handle both her grief and what you were going through with your grief?

It’s difficult. We are not through our grief yet. We are both grieving. There are multiple stages and it never ends because grief lasts as long as love does. When the love is gone, what’s in its place is grief. We handled it a little differently. She’s a busybody. She’s like, “I’m not going to stop moving. I’m going to keep going. I’m not going to sit down. I’m not going to be anywhere where it’s quiet.” She started head diving into hanging out with friends, staying active and being a busybody. I’m more of the sulk. If I’m going to do a distraction, it’s going to go in the wrong direction. Especially once I was pregnant, I sat down and I sat with myself.

She took it hard. It was hard for her to handle. I’m very much like my father so I don’t think she knew what to do. To this day, she is the biggest supporter. She’s like, “Whatever you need, I will do it. I don’t know what you need and how to help you. You are right, it was my husband and it was your father. They are different in a sense. He meant something to you and me but they are different in each way. I am here for you. Whatever you need, if you need to go away, you need to travel, I’m here.” That’s how she’s helped and supported me during my grief, which is incredible and amazing. I wouldn’t be here without her.

How did she react to the news of your pregnancy?

I cried. I was bawling and she was like, “Logan, we can do this. We’ve got this.”

That’s awesome.

I was scared. I was like, “She’s going to kill me.” She was going to be like, “This is what we need, Logan.” She was supportive. She’s like, “Logan, let’s look at this as a gift. It will be beautiful. We’ve got this. We can do it. I’m going to be there for you every step of the way,” and she has. That’s a huge reason being a single mom has not been terrible. I feel I’m not single, other than not the romantic side or a male in the picture. I have so much support around me that I have even better than what I would have if I had a man helping me out honestly and truthfully.

Is Charlie’s dad in the picture at all?

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We get along and are cordial. We grew up and we are friends. He is not very present. In the beginning, I was down, upset, and angry even because I couldn’t wrap my head around why or how somebody couldn’t want to be in their child’s life. It didn’t make sense but then I’ve got a different view on it and a different perspective, and I thought, “It’s probably easier for guys.” I don’t want to offend any guys, especially since you didn’t know the whole pregnancy. It’s easier to detach. Also, I realized upsetting myself over it and being angry or having strife with him does nothing for Charlie’s well-being. My main goal is for her to have a good life and be healthy. To be angry at somebody for something like that when I’m doing fine on my own is pointless. It’s a waste of energy.

That’s amazing that you realized that because you are right, it does no one any good.

At times, I have totally lost it and lashed out. I don’t even feel better afterward. I feel like that was pointless.

It makes you more sad.

It sucks feeling angry. I hate the feeling of anger. That and guilt are the worst feelings to have in your body to hold and they eat you alive. They don’t make you feel like you are human so I hate that. Every time I feel angry, especially when it involves Charlie and somebody in her life, I’m like, “Is this necessary? Do I need to be feeling this?”

Since you did have Charlie, I know that we said that your life changed. She essentially saved your life but tell me how your life did change when she was born. Tell me about that experience.

I was lost before I had her. I felt like I had no self-esteem, direction and purpose. I felt worthless. When I thought I was pregnant, I’ve finally got out of that relationship. I moved back home so I was back at home again in my mid-twenties. I was beating myself up. The day I had her, the way I delivered, and all that happened so quickly. It was weird because I was a first-time mom and I was in active labor most of the time at home. I’ve got there and I had her in two hours. It was fast and excruciating.

You missed the epidural.

I’ve got it right before but I was completely dilated, my water broke on its own and everything. They kept looking at me like, “What are your secrets? How is this going so quickly?” I was like, “I don’t know.” I’ve got a mask on because of COVID.

Did you have your mom or anyone with you?

I could have one person and I had my mom. I kept looking at her going, “Mom, I can’t do this.” She’s like, “Logan, you are going to have to. You don’t have a choice. That baby is coming now.” After all that and giving birth, in general, is the most empowering, magical and superhuman feeling. I remember that I had an epidural so my legs didn’t work but I felt like a badass. I was ready to walk around. They were like, “You need to calm down.” I’m like, “No. I’m invincible.” You feel like such a bad bitch and it changed from there.

I feel like my confidence was buried in me all along. It wasn’t just that it gave me confidence. My dad has always fed me what I forgot. “I can do anything I set my mind to and I’m a badass.” That’s it. That changed everything from there and in the weeks following, I was winging motherhood. I had no idea. Every time I asked my mom a question, she’s like, “I don’t know, Logan. That was 25 years ago.” I’m like, “Thanks for the help.”

 

Googling things daily the most ridiculous things I googled besides, worrying if she was going to be okay, I never felt so confident in my ability to do something and feeling I was doing it right. Also, knowing that I was the best I could be and I was the best version of myself every day. Even though I wore PJ’s every day, my hair was in a bun, and I look like hell, I was like, “I am beautiful. I am capable. I’m amazing and so is this little girl.” I am never going to say anything else to myself. I’m never going to look in the mirror, especially if she’s around and be like, “My hips are too big.” What is she going to do? She’s going to do the same thing. She’s going to learn those.

Especially having a daughter changed everything. It’s made me view myself differently. It made me more generous to myself and compassionate especially toward other women. I have always been about women empowerment and being there for other women but I struggled growing up being bullied by women a lot. It was hard to find good girlfriends that didn’t gossip and it was rough so I gave up at times. I was like, “I won’t have girlfriends.” After having Charlie, I connected with a lot of mothers and I became a whole different woman.

That’s amazing. I had a similar experience, not to your motherhood but I always felt more close to men because I felt a weird vibe from other women. It was just that I didn’t know how to connect with them and now that I figured that out, which is by being vulnerable, that’s how I connect with them. Before, I would play it off like I had everything. That’s why this show is called The Luxury Dropout. I was like, “Let me buy this Gucci belt and I will be fine.” What does the Gucci belt do? It has been hanging in my closet and I haven’t even worn it.

All of the stuff that I have learned and all the studying that I have done on my online Psychology degree from Instagram that I have received has helped me a lot. A lot of the stuff that I share resonates with a lot of women. They were like, “I’m going through this now.” Some guy commented on my picture and he was like, “Your body is not sexy. You need to go do cardio.” I screenshotted it and I posted it. Normally I would have been embarrassed, deleted it or blocked. All these girls were like, “That’s so horrible. Are you okay?” I’m honestly fine. I said, “If a woman would have said this to me, maybe I would have been a little bit upset but it’s a guy and he has no pictures so I’m okay.”

He’s a troll who has no life.

I told you that I was thinking about your dad, “Don’t let anyone tell you how you feel about yourself.” I know you were working those odd jobs or whatever to have some income when you were pregnant. When did you decide to venture out on your own and find a career that you could do and build a career from home?

It fell into my lap but at the right time. I was getting burnt out. I started bartending three weeks after Charlie was born because I was doing this all on my own. I picked that job in that restaurant because I would only work from 4:30 until midnight, 2:00 AM, whatever. Those are the times that my mom was available to watch Charlie. I was burnt out so quickly. By about March of 2021, I was like, “Enough is enough. I can’t do this anymore. I’m dying. I’ve got to do something else. I want to have more energy and time for my daughter and me, and to be healthy mentally and physically.”

I have been connecting with this girl on social media and she was telling me what she does and how she utilizes and monetizes her social media, gets to work from home and stays with her baby girl. We met for a reason because she lives in Arizona so I was like, “This doesn’t just happen.” We started connecting and she told me a little bit more. I finally was like, “Let’s do it.”

I work for a partner with an anti-aging company, vegan hair and skin care, and wellness. It’s great because the products themselves are awesome, amazing, safe, vegan and cruelty-free. It’s cool to be behind a product that you believe in because I have had many jobs where I was miserable. I did not even believe in the things I was selling.

Amazingly, I can do that. I’m also at home, I’m with Charlie and I can also help other girls do the same, other moms especially. That was my goal. That’s why I pulled the trigger because I was like, “If this works out for me, I can make it work out for others.” I’m not social media savvy. I’m not this and that so I was like, “If I can do it,” and I have. I have been successful because it’s a business that you can’t be successful unless you don’t try and you give up because that’s the only way. I love that I’m able to help others. I can guide them toward a more financial-free and time-free lifestyle, especially their moms who are experiencing not wanting to be away from their babies because it’s the hardest thing ever to leave them behind.

She introduced you to this company and you tried the product first. You love them and you decided, “This is something I want to do.” You are not social media savvy. Did your friend give you pointers on what to do? Did you google? How did you find out what to do?

Fall in love with yourself and being single, and then you're ready to be in a relationship. Click To Tweet

Immediately, once I joined, I was put into groups with other girls that were on my team and a part of this. It was cool because it wasn’t a competitive environment. It’s like, “You can do this. Let’s go. Here are tips.” Girls were giving me content, in the beginning, to post so I could learn. They would send videos teaching me how to create content, how to post and engage. They give you all the tips and it’s for free. I was like, “This is great because now I can sell anything I want. I could do anything else on the side as well because I’m learning so much. I should have done this instead of paying so much money going to college. This is all for free and it’s great advice.”

I was taught by a bunch of girls, they helped me with everything. We learned from a few people who do Zoom calls and stuff that are sales specialists and stuff that’s cool. That’s offered for free as well. I’m playing around and now I have the time to sit, be present, and not rush around and sleep whenever I can. I was able to get on and play around with social media, all its benefits, and all the things that you can utilize for business purposes.

You have been doing well. I have been loving your posts. You have been doing awesome. The products that you sell are considered to be multi-level marketing. Some people make fun of it. Some people say they are shitty products. There’s all this controversy. What do you say to sway their opinion the other way? Do you try or are you like, “If you don’t want it, you don’t want it?”

I’m in between. If they say that something is completely absurd or they have an objection that’s absurd and untrue or false, I’m going to give them the true info and they can take it or leave it but I’m not going to let you say that when it’s untrue and walk away still believing that that’s true. It depends on what they say. It’s like, “So and so said that it made their hair fall out.” I’m like, “Is my hair falling out? Clearly, it’s here and it’s a lot. I don’t ever even do anything to it other than use the product.” It’s things like that. I give other reasons, too, but it depends on what they say back because I don’t want anybody to leave still believing something negative or false.

I’m blunt and I’m honest. There are products on the line that I don’t personally like. I will tell you and I will not recommend them. “They do work for Susan over here or so and so over there but they don’t work for me.” I will be totally honest. That’s why I joined because I did love probably 95% of their products and the other 5% are either because or for curly-haired girls or they didn’t work for me and that’s fine. I liked that about it.

There isn’t a beauty line where I can say, “I love every product.”

Without lying to yourself. You are like, “I love this.” No, I don’t think it will work.

You are like, “It’s making me break out but I love it.”

You must be getting a good commission on that to be utilizing that and it’s making you break out.

 

You have seen success and people have been supporting you, which is great. Do you see yourself doing something else as well to supplement that income? Do you see yourself focusing on this for the near future?

I see myself doing what my dad did. I am somebody who loves different avenues of income. What’s great about this company is you do get paid in different ways in four different ways. That’s cool so it already feels like you have multiple incomes but I want to dive into other things. Especially once I have childcare for Charlie, I would be interested in it. It’s taking a while to get the in-person training done. ISR, I don’t know if you have ever heard of it.

What is that?

Infant Self Rescue. What you are is you are teaching babies as young as six months and older how to survive if they were to fall into a body of water. I put Charlie in it for a while, too. I remember I was sitting there at our practice one day and I was like, “Why am I not doing this?” I have done swim lessons my entire life. I have taught so many kids how to swim. I was a swim coach. I swam myself. For one, I would be making a good side income. I could do it on my own schedule because you are an independent person, it’s your business.

I could do it in my backyard in the pool and I would be saving and preventing another child from drowning, which is something near and dear to my heart because I feel it should not happen. It’s awful and heartbreaking. Especially in our area with so much water and many people with pools being on boats, I’m like, “This needs to be something people take seriously and put their kids in.” Maybe you don’t have to do it when they are six months old if you are unsure but at least if you have a pool in your backyard by the time they are one or so. I have been wanting to do that as an aside, too.

That’s fantastic. I have never yet heard of that.

If you watch videos, it’s scary. A lot of moms I have talked to about it are like, “I would never be able to put my son or daughter in there.” It’s scary because they are crying, upset, and struggling in the water but you know that they are okay. There’s this instructor with them teaching them. It’s only for ten minutes every day. Your child is in the pool for ten minutes.

I was like, “I would rather feel heartbroken and sad that my child is crying and screaming in the pool because she’s not wanting to be doing that than being heartbroken for life because of some tragedy that happened when it could be prevented.” Babies are adaptable and they are smart. It’s crazy how fast she learned to flip over and float on her back. That’s all she needs and screams for help because they are so buoyant. Babies are chubby.

That’s fascinating and a little bit of a nod to your dad, too. That’s fantastic. I hope that you do that. Please, keep me posted on that because I will want to learn more about it. I want to tell my sister about it. My nephew is going to be three in November of 2021. He has been taking swim lessons but he didn’t do that survival thing. I don’t know if he wouldn’t know what to do to turn his back like that.

What they teach you in swim lessons is significantly different because when you enter swim lessons, you are taught to blow out when you hit the wall and all these different things. When you are trying to survive, the last thing you do is let out air because when you are underwater and you let out your air, you almost have to felt it be. It’s hard to hold your breath after you let it out. They teach separate things because one is survival and one is for fun and play so you can play with your friends in the pool and have a good time. The other one is like, “This is what happens if you fall in the water.” They teach the babies with their clothes and shoes fully on because that’s realistic.

All likelihood, that’s probably what would happen. It’s funny when my sister was eight months pregnant, her dog fell in the pool and didn’t know how to swim. She jumped in the pool, fully clothed, eight months pregnant with shoes and everything. Do you remember that day I’ve got in that accident?

Yes.

It was the same day.

Are you serious?

My mom was like, “What is going on with you, guys?”

Bizarre. She’s like, “My children.”

She’s like, “I need you to not.”

That’s crazy. I’m so sorry about that accident, by the way. That was terrible.

It’s such a pain in my ass.

I was in Cabo the week after and I haven’t told my mom. I was like, “We need to be iffy about the taxis we use around here. One of my friends got into a serious accident. She had to go to the hospital and everything. What would we do? I don’t even know what to do.”

They were like, “Which hospital do you want to go to?” I was like, “I don’t know.”

You were like, “I’m coming from the airport. Take me wherever but bring my luggage.”

All my shit was still in the truck, my passport, my money and everything. All I had was my phone. I was on FaceTime and WhatsApp with my parents. I was strapped to the gurney that had my parents on my chest.

You probably gave them a heart attack.

They had a PTSD reaction to it. At first, they were scared. The day after that, my mom had this weird meltdown and got super mad at me, and didn’t talk to me for a day.

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You were like, “I’m over here suffering.”

I almost died. I’m like, “Are you not going to talk to me? Why are you mad?” She wouldn’t answer me. When my mom doesn’t answer me, I have a small panic attack. I’m like, “Mom, you have to answer me. I’m your child.” She ended up explaining later that she had a PTSD reaction and it came out as anger. It wasn’t towards me.

You know how to handle it. It was terrifying. I can’t even imagine.

I couldn’t go back home because my foot was sliced open and my back was fucked up. I couldn’t leave. I was stuck. I was alone. All I wanted to do is talk to my mommy and she wouldn’t answer.

She’s like, “Screw you.” You are like, “Why are you hurting?”

She’s like, “What are you even doing there? Are you on a romantic vacation?” I was like, “Yes, there’s a guy here.”

“I’m with myself.”

There was a guy there that I saw but he wasn’t the sole reason why I went.

You were like, “Mom, it’s Mexico. I don’t have to have an excuse.”

“Also, I’m in my mid-30s.”

“I will do what I want.”

“Are you going to ever let me do what I want to do?” Probably never, to be honest.

She’s just a parent.

I’m not allowed to get tattoos. My mom was like, “If you get one when I’m dead, I will come back from the grave and I will haunt you.” She still checks my body for tattoos.

What if it’s a memory of her? What would she do?

I don’t know.

She will probably still haunt you.

She will probably hate it more. She’s like, “You’ve got a tattoo of me when I told you I hate it?” I love tattoos. My best friend is covered in tattoos. She treats her like one of our sisters and I’m like, “Mom, Christy has tattoos.” She’s like, “I didn’t meet her until she had all those so I couldn’t say anything.” I was like, “Okay, fine.” I will be 50 and unable to make my own adult decisions. To be fair, I love my parents. They take good care of me. I can’t complain.

I will probably be the same type of parent, to be honest. I’m going to be a cool mom and then I’m going to be like, “You are not allowed to do this. You are not allowed to do that.”

Now you understand why your dad had those talks with you about getting your shit together because he loved you and he wanted you to snap out of it.

He was protective.

When you are with a narcissistic boyfriend, that’s hard to get out of that cycle of abuse. You have those super high highs and super low lows and it’s addictive.

It was addicting. I’ve got out of all my friendships, I left my job, and I was like, “What am I doing, being a full-time girlfriend or something to a guy who doesn’t even talk to me every other day?” It was dumb.

You almost blame yourself for them not talking to you.

I was like, “I have to make this right.” I was like, “If only I can be prettier, be better, listened more, didn’t complain and cooked well.” I would do all those things. I was perfect. Talk about wife material, I made myself and built myself into a wife but then I lost myself at the same time because that was not who I was and who I was meant to be. It wasn’t natural and I was trying too hard. It pushes them more and then you are chasing after him like a savage.

The second that you try to block them off or you say no, they come charging after you.

Full-blown stalker mode.

“I love you. What do you mean? I didn’t mean to do that.”

“Let’s go get married.”

“Let’s get engaged. Let’s have a baby.” We have dated the same guy.

That sounds reasonable, “Let’s have a baby with this psycho.”

You are going to have to listen to this episode I did with this guy, Leon Walker. He’s a former narcissist. We went through everything that you are talking about. He’s diagnosed, has done the work, and then he will go into character. He has a bunch of TikTok followers. He goes into character as a narcissist. I had to put a trigger warning on my video in case people are triggered by that. He is older. Women are like, “You are triggering me.” He’s like, “I’m not trying to trigger you but I am trying to get you to realize what’s going on.”

I have never heard of a narcissist do work. That’s unheard of.

Me neither. He admits it. He was like, “I was addicted to porn. I was addicted to hurting women, not physically but mentally, wanting them to suffer, playing games with them, and telling them I was going to cheat on them. If they went and got another guy after that, I was super upset and questioning why they would ever leave.” He laid it out there.

I will have to read that. That’s wild.

I put a little snippet of it online and people are like, “Where can I listen?” I’m like, “It’s not launched yet. It will be.” I’m proud of you for leaving because that’s hard.

Charlie is where I pulled the strength to do it because I was not going to do it. Especially after my dad passed, he got abusive. I still was all struck by him. I thought that if we weren’t dating, I was going to die. I couldn’t survive without him. I lived and breathed him.

He was observing you see what you needed and he would fill those holes just enough to keep you in and then he would throw you away.

You were talking about the love bombing. When we first met, he wants me to move in, he wants to get married, I’m the best thing in the world, I’m the most beautiful girl. I kept saying, “When is the other shoe going to drop?” I would always joke, “You are too good to be true. You are too perfect.” Ironically, the shoe did drop and it dropped hard a few short months later after I was wrapped around as near.

You were saying with the tattoo, it’s this perfectly curated text out of a fairy tale.

Out of a novel. I was like, “This guy is unreal. Why am I not finding him? Why isn’t he married?” There’s a reason. I find out that all of his exes suffered the same thing and I’m like, “Silly Logan.”

The biggest life lesson is to slow down and enjoy life because you never know. Click To Tweet

You are not silly. You had to learn the lesson.

I am glad I learned so I know that in the future, I do not screw around with that. I did see some but I was like, “There’s so much good. Surely, that’s not what that is. That’s not a red flag. That’s a weird quirk.” Now I’m like, “That’s a red flag. I’m out. Bye.”

I do the same thing. One red flag and I’m cut.

It’s like, “You don’t even have time to explain yourself. You are going to have to die and be reincarnated to have another chance with me because it’s not happening.”

Good for you. Not only do you have to protect yourself but you’ve got to protect your daughter. Have you been dating at all though or trying?

I dated briefly. I tried. I was not in it, especially to get older, it’s so much work. Having Charlie, it was hard getting my attention to somebody else. It wasn’t her father so that transition was difficult. He’s confused, “Why doesn’t she like hanging around me? Why doesn’t she act as she does with you with me? She doesn’t like me.” I’m like, “She doesn’t know men. She doesn’t like guys in general because she’s never around them.” It’s hard to explain. I feel like I’m saying sorry but I’m like, “What am I saying sorry for?”

You have nothing to be sorry for.

It was too much work. I was like, “I’m going to put that on pause and try again some other time.” I’m loving being single.

I would rather be peaceful and single any day than be in a stressful relationship.

Relationships do require an effort but not to the point where it’s all-consuming. You are constantly having to sit and work on it. Work things through and figure things. Most of the time it clicks, and then you do work through your quirks and your flaws. It shouldn’t be as hard as some of the people that I have met.

As a young single mom, what would you say to other young single moms who are saying to themselves, “I need to find a husband? I’m lonely. It’s going to be too late. I’m going to be 30 and single.” What do you say to those women?

You’ve got to sit back and you’ve got to work on yourself. If you are going to want a husband material, you’ve got to make sure you are wife material. What do you envision as a good wife? Be that girl, be that woman. What do you envision being a good wife, a good mom? Be that girl, work on yourself and do inner work. Fall in love with yourself and being single, and then you are ready to be in a relationship.

If you are trying to get in a relationship because you are lonely, something is going on internally. That’s not because you need a man. That’s because you need something done inside. You should not ever be lonely because there’s not a man there. That has to do with something completely irrelevant to an actual physical being, being there.

The best and the safest thing to do for your well-being, your future, and your kids is to focus on you and focus on your kids. You don’t have all the time in the world to be with them. You only get so many years, and then they move out and they move away. Soak it up. Enjoy it. Whenever you are at peace and you feel like you have done your inner work, it will come. I know it. I feel it. The right guy will come. The more you force and the more you go out there and trying hard, the more you are going to fall into the laps of people that you don’t belong in.

Seal of approval on that one for me. I’m someone who doesn’t have a kid but I agree with it.

Even if you don’t have a kid, women do that a lot. You feel lonely and you feel like, “I’m going to go with this guy because he’s available I don’t feel as lonely.” You are going to feel more lonely with those people. They are going to leave you feeling like you are not only lonely but you are empty, depleted and exhausted. It’s going to take even more time to be ready for the next one or the next round to find somebody new.

You have to put on a brave face for your family, for your kid. That takes a lot of energy.

That’s the most important thing, to put your energy in.

What would you say is one of the most important life lessons that you still think about that your dad taught you?

He was a perfectionist. He was involved in everything. He was up to keep his image and reputation. He’s a huge people pleaser. He loved making people happy. That can be depleting. He was always chasing the next rank, the next advancement or the next, “What could I do?” He was trying fast. He eventually reached where he felt satisfied where he felt like, “I made it to the top of where I saw myself going.” There’s never a cut-off. He’s like, “Now what?”

When he retired, that was probably the most low I have ever seen him. He’s meant to be working and continue doing things. He felt like he put so much in at such great speed that he didn’t sit and enjoy life. It passed by. He was laser-focused on these career goals but he didn’t sit and enjoy the ride. When I was growing up, he raised me to be like that.

Whenever life started slowing down for him and he retired, it was constantly like, “Logan, you have to do what makes you happy. No matter what it is. If you are not happy in a job, then leave. Life is way too short and there’s no reason to be rushing through it. Once you get there and there’s nowhere else to go, what do you do?”

That stuck with me and that made me feel comfortable because there’s so many times in life where I felt like, “I should be here. I need to be here.” He would be like, “Logan, enjoy it. You are going to miss this time because you are going to be married and have kids. You are going to be busy.” I graduated from college and I didn’t have a job and I was chilling. You are going to miss those times.

I missed those times.

I do already. Probably the biggest life lesson was to slow down and enjoy life because you never know. I learned it from him ultimately because I lost him when I never thought I would at the time I did. Love and enjoy everybody around you. Be compassionate and be happy above all. Do not let anyone make you unhappy. If they are, get out of that situation.

Even with toxic friendships. I have gotten rid of a lot of girlfriends. Unfortunately, that didn’t serve me anymore. We went on different paths. Sometimes I’m still cordial with them. Sometimes we don’t talk at all. They don’t fit in my life anymore. I agree. Here’s a final question for you. I ask everybody this on my show. It might be difficult for you to answer this because knowing what you know now, you will see. Let’s say you are walking down the street, you see twenty-year-old Logan walking towards you and you are like, “There’s me, twenty years old. I’ve got to go talk to her.” You go give her a big hug and leave her to embrace. What is the one thing that you tell twenty-year-old Logan?

I would say, “Stop giving yourself such a hard time. You don’t need to be perfect. That’s not even a thing. Love yourself who you are and whatnot. Stop giving your dad such a hard time.”

I bet he’s listening to this, no doubt. I specifically know that he put you and me together and I have told you that before. We connect well. He would tell you that he wouldn’t have changed anything that you did because that’s what made him a good dad.

I’m 100% him. I know he probably did it when he was a kid, too. He’s probably like, “This is my karma.” Sometimes he would be mad at you, “You are acting like me. You are hard-headed and stubborn. Do what you want to do in a woman and I was the same man.”

Thank you so much for coming to the show. You did an amazing job. I’m honored that you came and you spoke about this tough subject. This is hard stuff.

Thank you for listening.

Know that I always want to honor your dad. I always want to honor you, his memory and your family. I respect you guys a lot. Know that no matter what in life, you have a friend forever. I will always be here for you.

Me, too.

Let our readers know how we can support you.

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You can support me by going on my Instagram, that’s probably my preferred way. That’s where I have been working my business. It’s @LoganReed. I have a little link on there and you can click it or you could directly message me and ask me anything about my business or me. I’m an open book.

If someone has gone through a loss of a parent, would you be willing to speak with them?

One hundred percent. I have connected with a lot of people. It’s an awful joke but it’s The Grief Club. It’s a club you don’t ever want to be a part of but once you are in it, you are surrounded by people who understand it more than anybody else. I’m an open book for that.

Thank you again so much. Thank your mom.

Thank you.

Thank Charlie. I can’t wait to hang out with you, guys. Let me know when you are free so we can plan an all-day together and go swimming or whatever it is.

She loves swimming. It’s a date.

I love you. I will talk to you soon.

I love you. Thank you.

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That’s it for this episode with Logan Reed. Logan, you are amazing. Thank you so much for being a guest. I hope you enjoyed that and know how truly special it was to have Logan come on and talk about her grief like that in a way that is raw and real. It’s probably cathartic in a lot of ways but also extremely difficult to discuss things like this. In our mid-twenties, that is not something we are supposed to be dealing with yet, early motherhood, being a young mother and still grieving, figuring out the ways to do things, supporting yourself, building a business and going against the naysayers.

I hope this show has empowered you and made you feel strong. Please, reach out to Logan if you want to speak to her about beauty, skincare, grief or about her dad. If you have any questions, she is an open book. I would love to support her small business and I will. We love that you are here and you are reading. Thank you so much for joining us. Until next time, I’m sending you love. Stay well and I will see you soon.

Important Links:

• CCISD
• EquuSearch
• @LoganReed – Instagram
• Leon Walker – Past episode
• https://M.Facebook.com/logan.reed.3538
• Logan Reed

Dating in 2021 sucks. There is no other way to put it, honestly. Join me, Nicole and Jenn as we venture into honest conversation about feeling empowered sending nudes, how low the bar for is right now (hint: it’s on the floor), taking control of our sex lives, navigating dating apps, getting ghosted and a ton of other hot gossip. Grab a glass of wine for this one; you’re going to need it!

Nicole Sudyka is the host of the Hotter In Person podcast, where she talks about everything love and lifestyle.

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Watch the episode here:

Listen to the podcast here:

Nicole Sudyka And Jenn Ficarra Are “Hotter In Person,” But It’s Not Just Because Of How They Look!

…It’s Because The Vibes Are *Immaculate*

I have two very hot ladies joining me all the way from LA. They are Nicole Sudyka and Jenn Ficarra . They have their very own podcast called Hotter In Person. They basically came up with it on a whim during quarantine, during a discussion that they’re both just hotter in person. They’re truly spectacular people. They are funny and witty.

Their podcast is on point talking about a lot of dating issues that we face in our 20s and 30s. They offer a lot of insights into the female brain and a lot of really what goes on behind the scenes. Gentlemen, this will be a great episode for you as well. We go pretty in detail here, so I will say under eighteen audience, discretion is advised for this episode, which means you know we’re going to get into some tea. I hope you enjoy this episode.

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I am joined by the hotties from Hotter In Person podcast. Nicole and Jenn, welcome to the show. How are you?

I’m still hungover from the birthday party. It’s the first time I had real glam. I was like, “I’m fucking hot. I’m beautiful.”

You were beautiful and you looked so good. I couldn’t breathe when I saw your pictures.

She looked so good.

I’m not ugly. I’m just poor.

That’s it though. We are not ugly. We just don’t have the money to be pretty.

Jenn, was she hotter in person?

Yes. She looks amazing. That was my first time drinking with Nicole so now I know what I’m in for.

I was going to say that is probably quite the experience.

It was blocked out by dinner.

I’m happy. Do those things that you had on your ears make it back home?

Honestly, I have no idea where the ears went. The hair came with me. I was excited. I love this hairstylist, Glen. He was like, “I knew you would want to be a host so I brought you hair extensions.” I was like, “Yes.”

We love the hair. That’s awesome. Tell me about this theme of your birthday. It was so cool.

Jenn got me hooked on the books. They are called A Court of Thorns and Roses. One of my friends had already read it, and then I’ve got all my other friends on it. We have all become so fucking obsessed with it. I was like, “I’m doing my birthday party on this theme.” Everyone went above and beyond because I was buying decorations on Amazon and my one friend is like, “I will get a decorator.” My one friend is like, “I will get you glam.” One friend is like, “I will get your nails done.” I’ve got cool nails. They’ve got a face painter and glitter. I was like, “I have never been so special.”

I feel like with LA parties, you guys love a theme. Here, there will be a theme, some people will get dressed up for it, and then other people will wear their F leisure. It’s not that important. It’s not that somebody enforces it but there, you love a theme and I love that.

The glitter that I’ve got to put in the drinks were drugs because I don’t know what happened. We were all sober. It was like fairy wine.

It weeds out the bad ones real quick if you set your boundaries. Click To Tweet

Tequila was blue so when we would do shots, I was like, “It’s blue. It will be sweet.” In my mind, I’m like, “Blue, candy, sweet.” It was tequila. I would do these shots every single time like, “It’s going to be different this time.” No, it was straight blue sparkly tequila.

I’m into this. Any escapades or what?

There was. My Italian stallion.

I have seen it and it legitimately is. I’m scared.

When I had that hoe hair in, I was like, “I’m going to take a nude of myself with this hair covering my tits.” That’s always why I wanted long hair to cover my tits in photos. I sent him one. He sent me a voice note back and the Italian goes like, “I can’t wait to see you. You are so hot.” I’m drunk. I was trying to send a voice note back to him and it goes, “What do I say?” I sent the fucking voice note and I’m like, “How do I delete this?” I sent five of them being like, “How do I delete this?” Finally, I figured out how to unsend the goddamn clip. I wanted to die.

Was this on Instagram?

Yes.

You were sending the nudes on Instagram, that’s bold. That’s a great segue. I wanted to talk about nudes. We all have the same philosophy about nudes and we do it because we love ourselves, not for validation. Are you scared when you are sending nudes? Do you think to yourself, “This is going to get out?” Are you okay with it because your body looks so good?

If my nudes got out, it would be the best thing the world could see.

I don’t put my face on them. I try not to put my face in it and then I’m also of the mind of like, “I am a woman making a conscious decision to take this photo. I’m proud of my body and this photo.” If someone wants to be an asshole and leak it or if it’s somehow got out, God bless because you are all lucky to witness it.” I feel like that’s how you have to think of it. I love taking them. They make me feel so good. I love when I send them and I get a good reaction. If this is something that makes me feel good, I don’t even want to think about the negative part of it. I almost feel like I cross that bridge if you ever need to get to it but it’s also like, “You are welcome.”

Not talking about a sex tape but are we past the whole revenge porn thing with regards to nudes do you think? Are women like us is okay if it gets out because we are happy?

For me too, like, “God didn’t give me these tits for them to be hidden.” Even on drunk nights with my friends, everyone knows my tits come out. I’m like, “Titty shots.” Everyone is taking titty shots between my tits. Honestly, if they’ve got out, sorry mom. I have sent some very porn-y ones but I try to make them more classy. There’s 1 or 2 that I would probably fucking pass away if that got out but it’s to people I trust.

Gauging who you are sending it to as well. What you are sending and to who makes a difference for sure. I wouldn’t send a vagina to someone that I didn’t trust, tits for days. If I go to Europe, I will go to a topless beach and let them free. For me, boobs don’t mean anything but vaginas I will select it for you.

I don’t think I could. One ex was like, “Send me a picture of your vagina in the mirror with your legs spread open.” I was like, “Absolutely not.” That is where I draw the fucking line. I am not just a vagina person.

You are like, “I can’t even look at my own.”

That’s where I draw the line for my nudes. I do have a line.

I like to have a love-hate relationship with my vagina so I don’t want to photograph her.

She’s camera shy. It’s okay.

 

I feel like porn has made me hate my vagina and I feel like I need to be nicer to her.

We do. I agree though. Whenever I have taken a picture of my vagina, I have one labia that’s a little bit further out than the other so I cover that one with one finger. I’m conscious about the one labia.

I don’t look like what they are watching on Pornhub, but then no guy has ever done anything other than worship it. It’s just me and my own head. It’s like, “Who told me that?” Nobody.

That’s what I’m saying. I don’t think any guy has ever been like, “One of her labia is slightly bigger.”

Also for me, when I watch porn and I see a girl’s vagina, I don’t want to send the photo because when I look at it, I’m not that hot.

I am into gay porn. I don’t know why but I like seeing two dicks.

In gay porn, I love a threesome.

I do two lesbians because I feel like the girls know where to go, whereas the guys don’t know how to touch a woman in porn. My brain is a weird thing.

It’s okay. I accept you.

Sometimes I’m like, “I need to watch two women getting close.” When you are watching a guy going down on a girl in porn, you are like, “She’s faking it for the camera. There’s no way that feels good. He’s like a dog licking it. There’s nothing happening at a finger at a little rhythm.” The women know what they are doing.

If you look into passionate lovemaking or something like that, that type of people that are in love, that fantasy of porn, that’s when they eat that well. I don’t know if I can say the P-word on my show. I haven’t quite figured it out but I haven’t decided. I have been saying the F-bomb ten times. It doesn’t matter. Kitty, that’s an ugly name, too.

Is it eating the peach?

We were drunk and I was like, “Your meow meow.”

I have said that before, too. That’s so silly. We should just say pussy and be done with it. That’s it. It’s a weird word. You know this story because we have chatted before. I did have a nude leaked one time on Twitter. Thank God, somehow if I google my name, it doesn’t come up. I don’t know how that didn’t keep traction. I was texting with this former NFL player. I sent him my boobs. He got mad at me because I was posting screenshots of our convo and how needy, obsessive and weird he was being. He caught wind of it and someone sent them to him. He got revenge by posting my boobs. I immediately called my mom because I was freaking out. I was so worried she would see it.

The epitome of who I don’t want to disappoint is my mother. I don’t care about anyone else except for my mom and my dad. She was like, “Stephanie, don’t worry. You have amazing breasts.” What a great reaction from my mother saving the day. I was bawling my eyes out and she made me feel so much better. It got taken down almost immediately.

I don’t understand how that reaction is comparable to you posting screenshots of your conversation. I will never understand how men think how they escalate it that way.

That is completely unacceptable. You are correct. Apples are not oranges but that to him was smart. He’s a man-baby. Pro athletes, in general, are men babies.

They are used to being coddled and worshiped. When they don’t get their way, they want to throw a tantrum.

Not necessarily pro athletes but anyone celeb-wise and DM flighting, have you guys done a ton of that?

You shouldn’t be giving an ounce of energy any more to someone who’s not giving it back. Click To Tweet

No, I’m too scared. I shot my shot once on a dating app and I wanted to die. I was texting Jenn like, “What do I say to this guy?” She gave me a list of pickup lines to say. He’s an actor. I sent him my Wi-Fi password and I was like, “Save this for later.” He never replied. I never even got to finish my pickup line. This is the last time I ever shoot my fucking shot.

That was on Hinge?

No, another app. Even on Instagram, most people go to your request. I still would probably, for months would be like, “No, he hasn’t opened it.”

How about you, Jenn?

I will slide into any DM. I don’t even care. I matched with an MLB player years ago on Bumble and we went back and forth for a while but he played in a different state. He’s engaged with a baby on the way but we would Snapchat, sex and text. Some verified guys come in my DM sometimes but they are never guys that I’m interested in. It’s always the guys that I’m not interested in who gets in my DMs. I don’t care. I will slide into anyone’s DMs.

My thing is if I’m on a dating app and you put your Instagram handle in your thing, I’m not going to match with you when I’m interested. I’m going to go DM you. You are either going to walk the walk or not. You have it there for a reason so let’s see. It’s weird because I will slide into any DM and be like, “What’s the worst that can happen? They never respond.” I’m not that chill when I’m dating people.

I’m the same. I’m very emboldened when I’m initiating the contact. There’s this guy I have been talking to back and forth. He’s on TikTok. That’s how I found him. He has a podcast. He’s local in Houston. He’s attractive, age-appropriate and a sweet guy. He thinks like me. He’s very intentional with the whole dating experience. He was asking me for advice about this girl he had gone on a date with. He was like, “Do you think she is giving me the brush off or is this a legit excuse?”

I was giving him some advice. I ended up being like, “You and I should go on a date.” I was like, “Why not? This guy seems cool.” He was like, “Can I take some time to think about it?” I was like, “It hurts.” He’s trying to see if he’s ready for me. I feel like men are like, “I’m only going to date her when I’m ready to get married. She is like a fucker marriage person. No in-between. She’s not just going to fuck me so I have to be sure I’m ready for this first day.”

I’m trying not to take it personally so that’s how I’m thinking about it but keeping in mind that he always talks about being so intentional with dating and his motives for dating. He has got a son. He’s serious about his son. When he had his son over the summer, he took the whole month off social media to be with his son. I would shoot my shot. I’ve got ruthlessly shot down but that’s okay. I don’t feel embarrassed. I was like, “I am totally fine giving you online dating advice and being your online friend.” He was like, “I’m not going to take days. I just want to be intentional about it and think about us.” It’s a yay for me. It’s embarrassing.

At least you dare to do it. That’s what I feel sometimes, too. I would rather say what I need to say or go for it and have an answer than wonder like, “What if we could have clicked but I was too shy to ask him out?” As much as I do abide by the like if he wanted to, he would, sometimes some guys are shy and get in their own heads, too.

There have been times where I have had crushes on guys and years later, they would be like, “I had a crush on you too.” I’m like, “Why didn’t you say anything? I could have avoided all this therapy I’m in.” Sometimes some guys are a little bit more in their head about dating than the ones who aren’t just trying to fuck around. The guys who are serious about it can sometimes be as neurotic as we can be about it.

I feel like they always admit that when they are engaged and about to get married.

“I had a crush on you.” “We could have fallen in love and had a love story for the ages but okay, great.”

My guy best friend for years started dating this girl. I was very welcoming of her. I was like, “Come to my birthday party.” I was super nice. She didn’t like me. I was like, “Why is this girl does not like me? I’m super nice to her.” Slowly but surely, he picked her and we fell apart. We did everything together. We went to the movies, baseball games, football games, basketball games and dinner all the time. He came over to my house for Christmas with my family.

We were super close. We never touched physically, just friends. I was like, “Why is she jealous? I don’t understand.” During COVID, he got drunk and admitted to me over the phone. He was like, “I was in love with you.” I was like, “You had eight years.” My family, everybody was like, “He’s in love with you.” I was like, “He’s totally not.” He never indicated that ever, not once. He’s like, “Why do you think I always made time for you?” I’m like, “It’s because I’m cool. I’m fun to be around.” I understand why the girl was so pissed because she intuitively probably picked up on the fact that he was formerly in love with me. You’ve got to shoot your shot shit.

It’s because then you will wonder, “What if?”

Honestly, I don’t think he and I were meant to be. He’s engaged to her. They bought a house together. I’m super happy for him but I will never be invited to his wedding. He talks to me on the GL. When we had that big fucking freeze down here in Texas, everybody was out of power. I hope she doesn’t read this. He happened to be here during the freeze and stayed with me. It was cold so we stayed in the same bed. Nothing happened. I would never disrespect another woman like that regardless.

I would never disrespect him because then it probably would fuck up his relationship. He was like, “I’m on the phone. Don’t talk.” I’m like, “Shit, I hate this.” I would be a hell of pissed if I were her but on the other hand, I’m like, “We are not doing anything. He’s just here because he doesn’t have anywhere to go. He’s stuck here.”

 

It’s not the act. It’s the omission. It doesn’t matter that you guys aren’t doing it. This is not me attacking you but I’m saying I don’t know why guys are incapable of being upfront and honest because if he’s like this with you, I’m guaranteed he’s like this with other facets of his life. They are already starting the marriage on an uneven foot.

He is one of those people that don’t want to step in the shit ever. He wants smooth sailing.

I don’t have to go step in the shit to get cleaned my friends.

He won’t ever read this. I don’t know if she will.

What if he does? Leave him.

Have a talk with him about being honest with you because he and I have had our friendship steady going. Since he opened up about being formerly in love with me, we have talked pretty regularly but it’s always when he’s away from her, I’m like, “You are engaged to her.”

It’s not fair.

I feel guilty and I don’t know what to do because I don’t want to lose him as my friend permanently but on the other hand, I’m like, “I don’t want to do this to her either.” I don’t know. I’m stuck.

You do nothing and continue living your life.

She has her man. They have a house. She has a ring. She’s good. Jenn, I know you moved to LA. Are you in culture shock? How are you feeling?

Absolute culture shock. I had another moment where I was like, “I live here. I’m playing home.”

To tell everybody, you were living in New York.

I left my family and my closest friends to chase a dream out here. Number one, there’s not easily accessible bacon, egg and cheese on a bagel. My roommate has a cat and he’s feisty. I’m Italian and a word that’s in our vernacular is skutch, which means an annoying person. In the Tri-state area, skutch is a known word. I have been calling this cat a skutch and I’m like, “She’s looking at me. I used a foreign word.” It’s so different. I don’t know yet if I’m cut out for LA.

That’s okay. You have all the time. I wanted to ask you, when guys hear that you are from New York, are they like, “This is some voodoo magic.” All of a sudden you become this sexy girl.

I’m like a new toy. Hearing that I moved here, they are like, “Fresh meat is in town.” When they hear New York, they are like, “I love that New York attitude.” I was like, “It’s not an attitude. It’s just who I am but I’m happy to give it to you.” I’m a shiny new toy. I probably have that. I need to cash in on that before that will fade. I’m like, “I just moved here.” I don’t need to say when not too long ago.

It’s the Italian New Yorker thing, too. It’s like the combination of the two. They fetishize that a lot. I wanted to talk about this whole exotic thing. I have been talking about this for my Hinge stuff because the pickup line for every fucking guy I come across is, “What ethnicity are you?” Even better, “What nationality are you?” I’m like, “I have a US passport.” “Are you a US citizen as well? That’s amazing.”

I always answer it most sarcastically. I literally say like, “I’m American.” They are like, “You look so exotic.” I almost feel like it’s becoming, I don’t want to say racist because that’s too much but I can’t even figure out something in between there. It’s a fetish about being exotic or not looking your typical American, which I don’t even know what that is anymore. I get all kinds of stuff like, “Are you Jewish? Are you Armenian? Are you Greek? Are you Persian? You are Arabic. You are Lebanese.” I’m like, “You could guess anywhere in the world.” Maybe except for Scandinavia. Have you experienced that, Jenn? Do you get guys all the time that are like, “You are so exotic?”

Not so much in New York because I look like every other female in New York. When I went to school in Boston, I’ve got a lot of like, “Are you Italian? Are you Indian?” I get Persian and Spanish specifically. I used to be like, “I’m a stegosaurus.” How do you want me to answer that? I’m very proud. To be an Italian American is like a joke that an Italian can’t be in a conversation with you without telling you they are Italian as evidenced by this show. Guys would love to be like, “What are you?” I was like, “I’m a human being. What are you?” I have gotten it a few times. Not as much but it’s happened.

Nicole, for you, the other way around, I know that you have been “traveling” around Europe from your phone. Let’s tell everyone your goal with dating international men.

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I want European citizenship so I can spend my summers on the yachts in Europe like the South of France and Italy going around. That’s my goal.

You might be able to get European citizenship depending on your lineage and country of origin. They all have different roles.

I want a man.

Maybe all three of us need to go and tear it up in Europe. I feel like that would be smart.

If I had a child with my Italian stallion, those children would be so beautiful because he’s tall, dark and handsome.

With that stallion sausage.

I am sick over it. I have never seen a penis.

Paired with his voice, it’s so sexy. It’s like, “You are so hot.” I’m like, “Daddy, talk to me.”

You need to get him to fly you out.

First-class also. Don’t play coach.

He said he was going to come my twenty-year-old ones to come to visit though. He’s making plans to come to visit.

In Croatia? We like him. He’s fun.

A little young but I’m glad to see a guy make an effort to want to come to see me. The continued conversation is what I’m most shook by. I’m like, “Hot damn. You are more mature than men my age.”

I have had people follow through and come to visit me. It’s blown up the two times that it’s happened. One guy was from New York. He works for Brooklyn PD and came to visit me. We have been talking. I met him physically in person in late 2018. I was at a bar and I accidentally stepped on his feet. That’s our cute meet. We ended up talking. He is sexual but also super funny. He was in a relationship for part of the time. We had stopped talking and then started talking again. He finally came to visit me and everything was going pretty great. He got a phone call. Something had happened with his dad in his health.

He had to leave almost immediately. He only was there for barely 24 hours. There’s an emergency going on so I don’t expect anyone to be like, “I landed.” It’s fine. I’m not like a baby. Twelve hours had gone by, I was expecting to hear like, “How is your dad? Is he alive?” He ghosted. I was like, “What the hell?” After that, months later, he starts talking to me again and I’m like, “Your signals are confusing and I’m not into it.” I left him on my restricted inbox and don’t mess with it.

I don’t understand men. They love to say that women are complicated. We are very simple to figure out. It’s so easy. The bar is on the floor and men still managed to not be able to meet it. It’s insane and genuinely mind-boggling.

Do you guys find yourself encouraging the bar to be so low sometimes because you are used to that? For example, a man 24 hours before the date confirms your date and we are like, “What a gentleman?” That’s common fucking decency to do that but yet we are surprised.

I went on a date. He confirmed the day before with time and place. I was like, “He’s so different. He’s such a man.” Flash forward, the bar is on the floor. That was the bare minimum you could do.

 

Remember I was telling you, I had the state but I was going to go on. It didn’t happen because I messaged him. Back story, this is a guy that I had dated. We had gone on 6, 7 days, maybe more than that. We have hung out a bunch of times, got along well, had the same political views, vibe out well and had the same interests TV-wise. We watched a whole season of American Horror Story together. Right as we were getting to the part where we were probably going to switch to boyfriend-girlfriend, he got cold feet and was like, “I’m depressed. I’m not ready for a relationship. I am not good enough for you.”

He was kind about it. I was like, “You are going through it. No big deal.” We remained friendly. He had reached out to me saying he wanted to spend time with me. I said, “I would be happy to go out on a date with you.” We set the time not the place. The day rolls around and I was like, “Do you still remember my address or do you need it?” He’s like, “I thought we were going to go to eat.” I was like, “You want to go eat in two different cars, and then come back and watch a movie at my house. Are we going to be in two cars? That doesn’t make sense.”

I already know him. He has already been to my house ten times. He hesitates to respond. I was forward with it. I set my boundary and was like, “To confirm, this is a date. This isn’t a hangout or whatever.” He’s like, “My bad. I didn’t know it was an official date.” I’m like, “What the fuck?” I hang up. I don’t know if he was planning on getting laid or what but I immediately was like, “I hope you understand that I have to set my boundaries. I can’t spend time with someone who’s not committed to going on a date with me.” He’s like, “I totally understand that.” That was the end of convo. At least it weeds out the bad ones really quick. If you set your boundaries like that, it weeds them out.

We are not on a hangout. We are not in high school.

I hate that word. “Do you want to hang out?” “No.”

Even if it was a hang-out, you guys can still drive to dinner together. What the fuck?

I want to hang out with my friends because I don’t have to wear makeup. I can keep on my cozies and be my full self. We are not hanging out. It’s either a date. I’m putting on some glam, dressing up and putting effort into the way I look or we are not going out. We are not doing the happy medium. It’s convenient for them because if you don’t put the label date on it, then there’s no pressure to say that, “Are we dating?” Grow up. The Spice Girls said, “I want a man, not a boy who thinks he can.” That is my dating mantra. There are no more men. There are only boys who think they are men. I’m sorry. I’m so heated because I am waiting for a man to text me and I’m getting angrier the longer I’m sitting here.

I totally feel your pain. There’s nothing worse than those days where your phone is here and you are just waiting.

I’m like, “Do you like me and you are not just a big texter you don’t like texting or are you indifferent about me?”

There’s one guy who likes me, who is in LA, funnily enough. He’s a doctor. I met him on TikTok. He’s great. He only likes to talk on the phone. Sometimes I need to fucking unwind because as you guys know when you are talking all the time, creating, being on camera and the phone all day, you don’t want to be on the fucking phone. We were on the phone for seven hours. I didn’t even realize it because it was fun but I don’t want to do that every night.

Once is good. I said, “You are a shitty texter.” I even said that right out to him. He laughed because he has a good sense of humor about it. I was like, “I cannot be talking to you on the phone. I’m eating dinner.” Sometimes I eat dinner and I’m catching up on work or watching one Netflix show that I have the time for. He wants to talk on the phone. He doesn’t initiate the conversation. He just sits there.

That’s different if it’s an engaging two-way phone conversation but if you have to also hold the conversation, that’s like, “Just let me be.”

I’m so bad with being like, “I’ve got to go.” I would be like, “Can you say you have to go soon?”

One day I was like, “Can we hang up? You can send me a voice memo through iMessage.” We did that and that was better.

I love all forms of fucking voice notes. It’s talking on the phone without the pain.

Whenever I get the green bubble, I’m like, “I can’t voice note you. What do I do?” They are like, “We can get on WhatsApp.” I’m like, “No.”

“WhatsApp is for my European boyfriends.”

That’s only if you are out of the country.

“You are American. You don’t deserve my WhatsApp.”

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Plus, I’m shit about checking my WhatsApp. I need to be better about it.

I don’t even think I have the app anymore.

I turned all my notifications off. When I check my phone, I’m surprised if I have a text message, WhatsApp or Instagram. I’m like, “I’ve got texts.”

That’s a good tactic for you for this guy. You should silence his texts. Swipe in put the little moon, and then it will be a surprise.

It’s my favorite thing.

I want somebody to want to text me. It’s like, “I thought we had such a good connection.” I’m like, “Can I even trust my intuition? Is my gut broke?” I don’t know anymore.

I am a firm believer in the fact that it’s not you. It’s him, for sure.

I’m amazing. I don’t get it.

You both are the whole package. Anybody who can’t get it together for you is not ready for you. That’s how I feel about myself, too. I feel like those who want me but can’t deal with it are not ready. That’s fine. They are not for me. It sucks. Do I cry on Christmas Eve? Yes, every fucking year.

I cry myself to sleep probably once a week.

I would totally cuddle with you.

It sucks because I feel like we have so much love to give somebody and I don’t understand. I was having this conversation with a friend. I don’t understand why it seems so easy for so many other people and I routinely fail or nobody is banging down my door, wanting to date me or us. It’s like, “What the fuck? What are you looking for?”

I have been divorced for years. I’ve got married super fucking young. Some people are getting divorced and they are finding the love of their life within 1 or 2 years. I’m like, “I have been divorced for many years.”

My ex, when we broke up, we were going back and forth. He ended up getting with the girl. He was like, “Don’t worry about her. I would never date her. She’s in my band.” Flash forward, they are married together and I’m like, “You told me you didn’t want to find someone. You needed to be alone, but then you find someone and here I am like, ‘I want a boyfriend. Can I have one?’” I’m like, “How does that fucking work?”

Is this the one that said he doesn’t need your nudes?

Yes.

Let’s tell the audience about that because I find that whack.

He was the one who was like, “I don’t need your nudes because I have the real thing in person.” He also laughed the first time I put on lingerie and surprised him. There is that. He did apologize but scarred for a hot minute.

 

The Hawaiian guy who fucking scarred you from I love you. We don’t like him either.

Not I love you, you are just shooting my shot.

You say I love you to someone. Who was it? I forgot.

I said it to my ex because we were together for three years. The Hawaiian man at the bus stop in London on Edgware Road and I was in a leopard fucking fur coat. He looks at me and goes, “Nicole, you are a cool girl. I just don’t like you like that.” I’m like, “You fucking hooked up with me. Go fuck yourself.” Flash forward the rest of senior year, we hooked up on and off. I’m like, “Go fuck yourself.” I will never shoot my shot with a man again.

Did you sleep with him because you thought that would fix stuff?

My ex, 100%.

In your twenties, did you guys do that?

Yes. When I and my ex broke up, I thought sex would get him back. I would text and be like, “Let’s be friends. We can fuck. I have no feelings.” Meanwhile, I’m like, “It’s going to make it work.”

It’s like, “We use sex as a tool.” We all love gift giving as our love language so we thought that somehow giving sex to these men would make them love us.

I’m like, “He could still feel the connection. He’s going to love me.” Dear God, it makes me cringe.

It makes me cringe, too. I thought that if I didn’t have a man, I wasn’t a woman. Somehow that defined me as a woman. I would constantly try to buy them stuff, do stuff for them or make their life easier in some way. Were they doing anything for me? None. Was I even cumming during sex? No.

My one psycho ex that lived in Chicago was insane. He had a trust fund, but then he would be like, “I have no money for food. I need you to order me dinner tonight.” I would Postmates his dinner. Meanwhile, I’m a broke-ass fucking college student and then he’s like, “You didn’t buy me a fucking dessert. Go fuck yourself.” I’m like, “I’m sorry.” He’s telling me he’s fucking other girls and I’m like, “He will love me because I’m nurturing him.” It’s so nasty and vomitable.

Did you do that, too, Jen? You are shaking your head like you are over enough.

I used to sleep with guys knowing that they only wanted to hook up with me thinking, “If I hook up with them enough, they are going to wake up one day and realize I’m fantastic.” I’ will wear them down because I didn’t have the self-love to think you shouldn’t have to wear somebody down. They should either be upfront fuck yes about you. It took me forever to realize I shouldn’t be giving an ounce of energy anymore to someone that’s not giving it back. That’s why I’m waiting for this man to text me but I’m also like, “I haven’t heard from you since Saturday.” For me, my boundary is like, “Are you a good texter or are you just indifferent about me?”

It has only been two dates but I know that I’m interested in a third. “If you are not, tell me that. Be upfront about it. You don’t need to kill me with silence. Tell me.” I’m so heated. I genuinely felt like a connection with him that I have never felt with anyone before. I was like, “This is going to be something.” For it to turn out the same way that all of the other insignificant assholes have turned out, I’m like, “What am I doing wrong?” All my tarot TikToks were like, “He’s coming back. He’s going to text you. He’s your soulmate. I’m sensing air sign.” The answer is I know nothing but I know enough that you don’t need to sleep with somebody to get them to like you.

If you have had two successful dates in a row, to me, that is enough to know if you want to develop a relationship with someone.

I never had that so I wouldn’t know.

I feel like when I was in high school to mid-twenties, I had successful small, mini long-term things a bunch and guys were never hesitant to commit to me at that time. As I have gotten older, it’s been fucking impossible to get anybody to commit. I’m like, “I’m not even looking to get married and have babies or whatever right away. That’s not in the plan. I just want someone to hold, love, give my love to, spend my time with and bring on family vacay.” That’s what I would like to do but the ones that are out here in my dating pool or the ones that I have found are not ready for it.

Do you know what’s annoying, too? I feel like some people say, “You are being too picky. Maybe adjust your standards.” I’m like, “You didn’t have to do that to find the person you are with. Why do you think I need to do that to find someone?” I don’t agree with, “You should be less picky. Change your expectations or your standards.” I’m like, “You didn’t have to do that. Why do I have to do that?” I don’t believe I have to do that. I know it’s going to hurt until I finally find that person. It’s taking so damn long.

Never let a man make you feel like you are not worthy of being loved. Click To Tweet

The old adage of, “You find them when you are not looking,” is bullshit. That’s when you are maybe 25. When you get to 30, you need to actively be participating.

My eggs are fucking dimes. Sorry. I am fucking looking. I feel like there had been times when I haven’t looked and when I have been looking, neither work. I’m like, “I’m just going to do me. If that’s fucking sending nudes to my Italian stallion, then it’s fucking fine. Until whatever comes along, I’m going to do me.” Mr. Right will come along. Knock on wood, I fucking hope so.

Is the Italian guy younger or the other guy?

No, he’s older than me. I’m like, “He’s a perfect pancake.”

If you want something sexy in Italian to say to him, I would be more than happy to oblige. It’s funny because I grew up and learned Italian from my grandmother and my mom. They never taught me sex words. They never taught me how to say P-word, your meow meow.

How do you say, “I want to fuck you so badly?”

There are a bunch of ways to say fuck. Fare l’amore is making love. Trombare is to fuck. Ti voglio is I want you. Scopare is another way to say fuck. Voglioscoparti is I want to fuck you. There are a bunch of different ways to say fuck.

I want a man speaking a foreign accent whispering sweet nothings into my ear.

His voice is so hot when he played it. I was like, “Replay.” You are like, “Help. How do I do this?” Thank God you didn’t hear that.

When I was in this relationship with this Italian guy who didn’t speak English when we had sex, it was awkward sometimes because he would be talking to me, which was hot, but then I would be like, “I want to say things back but he won’t understand.” I had to learn it eventually. I was like, “How do you say dick? How do you say suck your dick or giving head?” To say suck your dick is pare pompino. That’s the word for it, pompino. It’s such a grody word.

I crack up. We were fighting in Italian, too. When we would get in fights, I would end up cussing him out in English. He was like, “I don’t understand you.” I was like, “I don’t care.” It’s hard to be in a relationship with a guy with another language. At least your guy speaks a little English. That’s great. That’s good to know.

Even if the only sex in English, I feel like that’s all you need, Nicole.

Let’s talk about Hotter In Person, your baby and podcast. Let’s talk about the inception of how it came to be and then how you executed it.

My best friend from high school is Nicole’s best friend from college. We always tangentially knew each other. We have also both hooked up with the same guy so that overlaps. During quarantine in 2021, we started our own TikTok liking pod. We started liking videos, and then we would send them to comment, then it escalates to DMs.

Eventually, we were going back and forth lamenting about our pathetic dating lives. We are like, “This would be a podcast. This is so good.” We would throw around titles. I said to Nicole, “I look better in person. I’m hotter in person.” Then it was like, “There it is.” We had plans to launch it, and then we made all the social media. All of a sudden, I look one day and there’s another Hotter In Person podcast. I was like, “This did not exist last week.” Some girl had a podcast with a different name and then she, all of a sudden, changed it. I’m of the theory that she saw our social media somehow and changed her name because she thought it sounded good.

The best is she will tag stuff and sometimes tag us. I’m like, “You are so dumb. You are not even tagging your own podcast.”

She can be nice. Weirdly, stuff launched, and then she created her so it was like, “Nicole, we need to record this immediately.” We were like, “We are doing it.” All of a sudden we were like, “We have to do this every day.”

Did you watch YouTube videos? How did you figure out how to put together a podcast?

 

Thank God for, Jenn. Jenn figured it out. We are like, “We will get a mic and record on Zoom.” Jenn does all the back thing.

I’m a writer. In terms of story structure, we need an opening, a beginning, middle, end, and natural segues between topics. It can’t just be like chat. You have to somehow bring the audience on the journey with you. I knew how to do editing from film school. We jumped off the cliff and we are like, “We will figure it out on the way.”

That’s awesome because I have had this equipment all set up for one year. I had a failure to launch thing. Maybe it’s one of those like imposter syndrome, fear of success, all of that psychology thing. I don’t know which one it was but I was so scared to start. I ended up talking to my friend who also has a podcast. She recommended that I hire a podcast company to help me with what I needed to get jump-started.

I’m such a type A, not necessarily always in my personal life but with my work. I wanted it to be perfect branding. The branding was consistent, everything looked the same and it was executed correctly. That’s where I was hesitating. I should have done like you. I should have better done than perfect for me at all times. For some reason, I didn’t. I couldn’t do it. Here I am. I’m hoping to launch it. I want to put you guys on either the 5th or 6th show. I want to warm them up before I go at them. If my mom reads, she will die.

There’s strategy involved. It’s six one way half it does in the other. When you are way more prepared upfront and get all of your ducks in a row, it probably makes it easier down the road. We are at a point where we are like, “We need to figure some of this shit out. How do you get sponsors? What is our branding like?” It depends. We were cooped up and needed an outlet. I’m such an I need to have it all ready before I go person that I try to actively jump and figure it out. It’s like I have to force myself to do that.

If we waited, I start sometimes getting into my head being like, “Am I stupid for starting a podcast? Many other people out there are doing it. Who am I to think like I’m going to be able to quit my job and do this full-time?” You get such your mind, too. I’m glad we started because then I would be like, “What are we doing?”

You both are excellent at it. Jenn, you steered the conversation, created the structure and provided funny anecdotes. Nicole, you come in and expand on everything that Jenn has put into place. You weave and tell the story. You guys have a cool dynamic going. It’s easy to listen to because you are so fucking hilarious and relatable. Don’t you ever listen to some people and immediately have to turn it off because it’s jarring to your soul?

Sometimes it gives me anxiety and I’m like, “I have to turn this off.”

You are soothing enough to where I could chill, be in bed and listen to it. I like that.

I feel like we’ve gotten some feedback where people are like, “It was like drinking a glass of wine with my girlfriends.” I was like, “That’s what we want. Put it on while you are driving or cleaning.” We don’t need to be the main focus of your moment. We are here to support you.

I feel like so many women our age, younger too and older probably go through what we are going through and never talk about it. They are so embarrassed to talk about the fact that they’ve got shot the fuck down when they asked a guy out.

At our age, no one talks about it. Jenn and I are our only single friends. You talk about when you are younger but once you hit your 30s, people aren’t talking about as much the struggles of being single when all your friends are getting married and on their second kid. It’s much different than when you are in your twenties and you are single because now it’s a little bit more serious. I haven’t found a podcast where you click with that or isn’t the same. They are always like, “It’s so easy to go on a date.” I’m like, “Fuck yourself.”

My Hinge one-month subscription was up. I don’t think I’m going to pay for that again. That’s where you can get as many matches.

I boosted my Hinge.

Did you get any good stuff?

I’ve got 60 likes so I’m still weeding through them but it’s not as much. I boosted in New York and gotten hot for 24 hours. I was like, “I’m going to get hundreds here.” I’ve got some. I was talking to this one guy and I was like, “I’m new to LA. What are some places I need to go to?” That’s my opening for you to be like, “I have a favorite taco spot. Let’s go.” He was like, “You are so new. I know some good places here. Text me.” “I’m not going to text you. I’m going to unmatch you. It’s too much effort and works for this.”

I hate when they immediately go to, “Give me your number right away.” I hate it because it puts me in a position of either I give them my number, we continue probably to talk for two minutes, and then he’s probably not going to talk anymore or you say no, and then it fizzles. You are fucked when they asked that early. You are like, “How do you know you want my number three sentences in?”

Unless you set up drinks and stuff right off the bat then I’m like, “Fucking take my number,” but if we are going to sit here and be like, “How was your day?” I’m like, “Go fuck yourself.”

Let the voice inside your head be louder than the opinions outside of it. Click To Tweet

It’s always the same thing. I don’t even drink. It’s not because I’m sober or against alcohol. I just don’t like it. When they are like, “Let’s go for a drink,” I’m like, “My profile states that I don’t drink. I understand that you don’t read.”

The bar is on the floor. Take notice of what is in. Why can’t they even read the profile? I’m drinking and I’m heated.

The bar is low. “Read my fucking profile. It’s all there.” I have there that I don’t even like coffee. I don’t care for it. I put it on there, “I don’t care for coffee.” They are like, “How about coffee instead of drinks?” I’m like, “Again, I don’t drink that either.” I’m not being difficult. I’m like, “I put it all out there for you to see before you match with me.”

This will all be good for our memoirs one day. One day we will be happy and in relationships but it’s a slog to get there. It’s a lot. It’s a minefield.

We’ve got to kiss all the frogs to get that prince.

We watch movies. Nicole, you probably don’t give a shit. You are like eyes of seal and no tears but maybe Jenn. I cry at the romance in movies.

On my period, I will start tearing up if it’s like a cheesy romcom. I have been there.

I have an emotional range of 4 to 8. If I am lower than a 4 or higher than 8, I’m crying. I cry so easily. It doesn’t even matter what it is. It can be a car commercial. I’m a weeper. I cry.

I am, too. I was watching this Netflix show called The Politician. I don’t know if you have seen it but it’s Emmy-nominated. It’s fucking good. It’s got Gwyneth Paltrow, Bette Midler, Ben Platt, who was in Pitch Perfect. He’s a good singer. I forgot who else. It’s got a bunch of cool people in it. It wasn’t even like a tear-jerker type of show but when I was watching it, I was crying. I was taking my pillowcases. I didn’t have tissue. I ran out. I was like, “My eyelash extensions are going to come off.” I was holding onto my eyeballs. I was PMs-ing but I would still have cried.

When I finished ACOTAR, the third book, I was bawling my eyes out at 2:00 AM crying.

I need to read these books.

You have to. Join the cult. The first one is good. Second one is amazing.

It’s out of this world. My friend got me the signed book and I freaked out for my birthday.

Is there love language also like gift-giving? That’s a great gift. I was talking to this guy about his love language. I know it’s always physical touch for them almost all the time but I feel like they want to throw in another one before the physical touch because they want to clarify with you that they are not always about physical touch as a disclaimer. He was like, “It’s quality time and physical touch.” As he was saying it, I was mouthing it to myself. I knew he was going to say it. I feel like men are so one-dimensional when it comes to dating sometimes. It’s ridiculous. I can predict everything that they are going to say from your exotic to my love language is physical touch.

It’s so boring. “Physical touch, you like to be hugged. You’ve got a personality, don.”

“You don’t like to be hugged.”

I feel like physical touch is the fake one. Physical touch isn’t real. Everybody likes to be shown affection.

There are some people that I know don’t like to be touched. That’s the thing.

Do you like to be touched, Nicole, in a relationship, hugged and all of that?

 

Down the line, touching, in general, makes me uncomfortable. I don’t hug my friends or my family. It’s not me. It takes me a bit to get down to, “Let’s hug or kiss.” Fucking I’m all for.

You are like, “Fuck me, just do not touch.” Note to self, when you and I meet, I will refrain from the hugs until you approach me with a hug.

I’m an anxious person. When I go on dates, the part that gives me the most anxiety is when I have to say hi and bye to them because I’m like, “Do I have to hug?” That’s what I freak out about like, “I do not want to hug you. If I get there first, do I have to stand up and hug you?” Some people kiss you on the cheek and I’m like, “I’m going to fucking kill myself. Is it 1 or 2 kisses?” I literally worked myself up for so long before. That part I’m like, “I wish I could text him and be like, ‘Please, let’s not hug.’”

In the spirit of honesty and boundaries, maybe you fucking should. “I’m not down for hugs.” Is that weird? It would make it weird.

I’m like, “Please, don’t touch me.” That’s why if they are like, “I will pick you up,” I’m like, “Car hugs are uncomfortable. I would rather fucking die.”

You have the console in between you so maybe it’s less likely to be a hug in that situation. I’m a hugger though. My family is all touchy and feely. We massage each other’s backs. We hug. We say, “I love you.” I know, Jenn, your family is like that, too.

I love being touched. Hug me, squeeze me, kiss me or choke me, whatever you want to do. Nicole is the exception, I suppose. You are right in that. Once you get feelings for someone, you like that. When you are dating someone and you feel something for them, I feel like everybody likes to be shown affection. When it’s like, “Physical touch is my number one,” I’m like, “You don’t have a personality.”

I feel like they are so one-dimensional when they answer that because truly, what I’m hearing is you like quality time. That’s what I’m hearing when I hear them say physical touch. That means spending physical time together. You have to translate everything. I do want to ask you guys one more question each. Nicole, we will start with you. If you saw your twenty-year-old self, you could talk to her and tell her 1 or 2 things, not hug her because maybe you wouldn’t want to but if you could talk to her, what is something that you would say to her?

I would say never move anywhere for a man. No matter how much you love them or care for them, never move any fucking way for a man unless you are getting married, it’s different. I lived up my college years but fucking lived it up. Your parents’ credit card goes away pretty fast. I always tell my cousins to study abroad and travel. When you are young, it’s such a different experience than once you get older. You are free and young in a different country.

How about you, Jenn?

I feel like I would tell her two things. I would say don’t be afraid to bet on yourself. I lived in a fear scarcity mindset for a long time. I feel like I’m living how I wish I would have lived in my early twenties with taking risks and betting on myself. The second one is never let a man make you feel like you are not worthy of being loved because I feel like I would let their actions make me think like, “Maybe this is as good as it gets. Maybe I don’t deserve what my friends have. Maybe all I’m ever going to get is the guy who just wants to fuck me.” That’s a big one.

My personal one is very similar and it’s never let anyone dictate what you think about your own self. Essentially, that’s the same thing. Even other women too, there have been other women throughout my life that have fucked with my mind because I sometimes take more offense to the women over the men, now especially. Before, I probably would have taken more of a hit if it was a guy because it was always about my parents like, “She’s fat.” I would die but now I’m like, “I don’t care what you think.” If a woman says something bad, I’m like, “Why don’t you like me?”

I feel like the older we are getting, it’s about letting your opinion inside your head be louder than the opinions outside of it. Hit you with all therapy. That’s what that says to me. It’s about making sure that what you think of you is the loudest voice for you.

That is an amazing note to end on, ladies. Thank you so much for being here. It means the world to me. I know that you have taken a lot of your time out for me. It has been so fun. I hope that we can do this in person. Everyone, go check out their podcast and their Instagram or their social media. Nicole and Jenn are doing big things. It’s only going to go up from here. Thank you, guys. I will talk to you so soon.

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That’s it for this episode. I hope you enjoyed my chat with Nicole and Jenn. They’re such fun girls to chat with. I honestly think I’m going to go visit them, and we’ll have a recap of everything that we spoke about and fully do it all day. Thank you to those ladies. Please go hit that Subscribe button. Like, comment, share this if you think it’s share-worthy. Go ahead and subscribe.

Also, please go ahead and leave me a review. It really helps me out. I appreciate everything that you guys do. I love hearing your comments and questions for the next upcoming shows. If you have any questions for the ladies, you can find all their information on my website. If you enjoyed this episode, you will absolutely enjoy their podcast for sure. Until next time, I’m sending you love. Stay well. I will see you soon.

Important Links:

• Jenn Ficarra
• Nicole Sudyka
• Hotter In Person
• A Court of Thorns and Roses
• Hinge
• TikTok – Hotter In Person Podcast
• Third book – A Court of Wings and Ruin
• Second – A Court of Mist and Fury
• Instagram – Hotter In Person Podcast

About Nicole Sudyka and Jennifer Ficarra

Nicole and Jenn are the brains behind the Hotter In Person Podcast. Conceived after a conversation about how they’re both “way hotter in person”, the podcast aims to explore love & lifestyle topics we all love but through a deeper lens. Like someone who looks fine on Instagram but shines in real life, there’s more to love and life than what we talk about on the surface. Hotter In Person releases new episodes every Thursday. Follow @hotterinpersonpod on Instagram for all the latest updates.

 

Who says pursuing your creative dreams has to come at the cost of a stable financial future? Well, with the right mindset on money and wise investments, it doesn’t have to be! My buddy Zach Schnall aka DJ Bander took some time out to drop in on TLD and drop a word. An award-winning composer/producer and skilled investor, Zach let us know how he pursued his dreams to get into the music industry without falling into the trope of the ‘struggling artist’ along the way. It’s all about having a plan and making the right financial choices! Join us for a deep dive on the smart way to invest your money, plus some tips on networking and marketing yourself in the digital space.

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Watch the episode here:

Listen to the podcast here:

Zach Schnall aka DJ Bander On Making Smart Financial Choices And Pursuing Creative Dreams

What’s up, Dropouts? I’m coming to you with another episode. We have got a special guest. His name is Zach Schnall. He is a DJ and he goes by DJ Bander. He is an expert in many things. I almost want to ask and I do ask him what doesn’t he do. He’s an expert in finance, marketing, social media, branding, stock market, stocks and bonds and investing. He has his hand in almost anything you can think of. He almost became an attorney. He’s got so much going for him, a wealth of knowledge.

He lives in Los Angeles, was born in Brooklyn, New York and we go over how to start a financial profile for yourself, how to prepare yourself to obtain generational and lifelong wealth for yourself. How to invest, how to educate yourself about stocks and bonds and what exactly to invest in. That’s exciting stuff. I personally never knew anything about this.

Also, we talk about branding and marketing yourself, how to get started in doing that. We talk about how to get connected in your industries and how to go online and make those connections but still be safe. Also, we talk about our love lives and how you date when you’re trying to be an entrepreneur and you’re trying to hustle every day. You have beautiful women or men that are working with you every single day. How do you maintain a solid relationship during all this commotion?

DJ Bander or Zach has a charting single on the Billboard Hot 100. It’s called Fast and he started as a writer and producer and then was encouraged to go ahead and start being a DJ so that’s how he came to be a DJ in the first place. It’s mind-blowing. I hope you’re ready for this. Please enjoy this episode of the show with DJ Bander.

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How are you, Zach? Thanks for joining us.

I’m great, Stephanie. Thank you for having me on.

Your alter ego is DJ Bander. You are a musician, a DJ and a pianist. You’ve studied classical music. You grew up in Brooklyn, New York. You’ve got such a vast and colorful history. You amaze me. Every time we talk, I learn something new about you. Having you on the show, I’ve learned even more. I’m excited to get to ask you all the things and pick your brain. First, I want to ask you a little bit about growing up and how you chose this career path for yourself. Going to school for music, you know early on that that is what you’re passionate about. How did you funnel that into the career that you have now?

A lot of people see my brand and my imaging and they probably don’t know that my background is in Finance and Political Science. I have a double degree in Finance and Poli Sci. I studied at the University of Redlands and then I also did pursue music all throughout my life. It was a passion. Coming from two educated and successful parents, they were clear to me that it had to be a balance of doing music but then also having a business accruement and understanding how to monetize it.

Believe it or not, there was a period of time where I stopped believing in my music completely. I was doing music a lot in high school but I got a little discouraged for some time because I didn’t have a lot of industry connections. I had a couple of friends that were doing music and they seem to have all these family connections that I didn’t have. I felt frustrated so I went all-in with my business for a while. All of a sudden, I was like, “That was starting to go well but I miss music. I like doing business and all that stuff and it’s important to me, but this is who I am. I am a musician.”

It’s just as cool to have your money in the bank as it is to have the money on a nice shirt or in a nice car. Click To Tweet

What I did was I ended up moving back to New York. I came back to Los Angeles to get my degree from Musicians Institute, which set me on the course that I’m on, having this established brand as a music producer because it led me to get my first digital distribution deal with Sony. It reconnected a relationship that I had with an old mentor, who I then started interning for, who was a composer at the time on some major films like Hollywood movies. I started working as an assistant to him on that. From that, it ran me back into the path that I’m now in, where I’m doing full-time production and eventually led to starting my digital marketing firm as well.

We knew each other through Clubhouse but your digital marketing firm is how you and I worked together. You did grow up in school for music and then your parents were like, “You got to have this backup plan.” That’s how you got into the finance side. Is that what I’m understanding?

Yeah. I have some people in my family who have that background, both in real estate and investing so it was always something that I was around. It’s something that’s in my family culture so I was always interested in it. Being an entrepreneur, capital has always been important to me and it’s always been a driving factor. I wouldn’t say it’s the most important thing to me but it’s definitely up there. It was important to me that I figured out a way to monetize my music. I have nothing against it but I wasn’t interested in being a struggling artist. The only reason I even continued pursuing music was because I had a strategy and a plan for turning it into a business.

I was going to go back into law and I was going to do law practices managing real estate firms, capital management, REITs and stuff but that wasn’t what I wanted to do either. I was blessed that I was able to come up with a strategy and a plan to build up a company that had services. Long before I ever got into digital marketing, long before there was even an Instagram, I did a lot of engineering and I did a lot of early on production for some big labels and some big hip hop artists. That got me the original capital that allowed me to do everything else that I’m doing now.

The question is, what haven’t you done? That’s a better question. Let’s start with finance. What are some tips that you can give to our younger audience? There are all these young entrepreneurs out there. There are TikTok stars and people that are big on Instagram. They’re 20 or 21 and they don’t know and they haven’t been counseled to do so. What do you advise them financially?

The biggest thing that creates wealth is a mental shift from the feeling of wanting to show off the ability to have goods on you, for example, clothing or a nice car or these different things and be excited by the growth of your portfolios and your accounts and having capital. That is as cool to have your money in the bank as it is to have the money on a nice shirt or in a nice car. When you get people to make that mental shift, what I find is then they get addicted to saving money. They get addicted to adding to their security as opposed to this bizarre addiction we have in this country of showing what we can buy.

What I try to tell people is, “The confidence that you project when you have a lot of money saved is just, if not much cooler, than pulling up in a nice car.” That’s what people need to understand. That’s what I tell young people a lot. It’s shifting into that mind frame of saving and spending less than they’re earning. If you can do that over the long-term, you have no choice but to end up being financially secure. In a sense, it’s like with anything else. If you’re earning more than you’re spending, you’re going to have money so that’s a big part of it.

That’s what The Luxury Dropout is all about. It’s my journey from advertising that I’m “rich” on the outside and broke on the inside.

I love the name, by the way. It’s great.

 

Thank you. I was so hyper-focused on wearing Gucci head to toe and having a Louis Vuitton phone case. I’m like, “Why do I need a $1,300 phone case? Do I really need that?” Also, not having $1,300 in my bank account. That’s the point. If I had $50,000 in my bank account, maybe that would be a different story. I had to put on a credit card and I had to make payments on it. It doesn’t make sense.

When I started enriching myself from the inside, that is what makes the biggest difference. That’s why you are going to be such an asset to people reading because they don’t have the tools sometimes. For example, nobody explained to me the importance of your credit. No one told me about that. I just happened to get a credit card when I was 21 and I opened a bank account. They were like, “Here’s your credit card. You have a $500 limit.” I would pay the minimum. No one ever told me, “Pay it off.”

Now I have excellent credit but I had to learn that by myself over time. Another thing I would advise young people to do is open a credit card, make those payments on time, pay it in full and build up your credit score because that’s how you’re going to do everything else in life. Get a home, get a car and all these kinds of things.

I went to this little conference that was about Forex trading and stuff that I was excited to see. There’s a lot of young people there from as young as 19 to 25 and they were all intent on learning about the industry of finance. There is definitely some of that happening out there in society but we know statistically that as a culture, the United States is far behind where a lot of these other countries are. Even though we have a lot of money in this country, the individual wealth is not as high as you think. It’s like 40%-something of Americans have no emergency fund and 58% of Americans are check to check. That is definitely a problem long-term. It’s not just so people have their own independent future but the strength of the entire country is at stake if we can’t get people to be more financially sound. We’re going to always be dependent on government support and things like that.

The takeaway is to stop spending your money and save it.

It’s great to have nice things. I enjoy my nice place and I have a nice car but what I tell people is, “The most important thing is I never spend any of my principal to have those things. All of the nice things in my life that I owned come from cash flow, from investments that I’ve made so that the principal is secured both in my portfolios as well as in my different companies and my different assets. Whatever I don’t feel I need to save, I then can enjoy and use for my place and for different stuff.” That’s the difference. That’s where it’s important to understand.

I haven’t increased my spending per percentage of my income ever. That’s how I build wealth. When I make a new deal, I’m not like, “Now I can increase my spending.” I don’t increase my spending at all. That goes back to what I said first, which is a mentality shift. I don’t need to buy a new Hermes belt for everybody to know I’m doing my thing. I don’t care. I don’t need you to know. I can rest peacefully at night knowing that I’m saving my money. People need to get into that mind frame. Don’t worry about impressing other people. They’re not going to be there for you when you run out of money.

You’re going to be more alone than ever. They were there for the wrong reasons in the first place. I’ve learned that in relationships too. Men that I dated and I’ve supported financially, unfortunately, in the past because my love language is gift-giving. I would love a person by saying, “I got it. I’ll take care of it. You can come live with me. Don’t worry about rent. Do you need help with your child support? No big deal. I got it.”

I feel like a lot of women show their love in that way.

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It’s a screwed-up way to learn but it’s how I learned. To be honest, that doesn’t make them not cheat, stay or not break up with you. In the end, you are left feeling super used and you’re like, “I gave you all of this stuff.” They don’t care. It’s a good lesson to learn. I’m exposing myself but it’s for a good cause.

At Clubhouse, you talk a lot about stocks and you’re getting a lot of great information about investing your money. I personally don’t know anything about that part of finance at all. What is the research that needs to be done when you want to invest in a stock? How do you stay in front of the trends? How do you look at the market? What can you give as some advice for that?

First of all, I invest in stuff I understand. If it’s a product I don’t understand, no matter how many people tell me that the stock is so hot, I won’t buy it. For example, many years ago, people recommended to me I should buy Lululemon and a couple of these makeup companies. I’m a guy. I’m not big aficionado of makeup. I have no passion behind it and therefore, I wouldn’t invest in it. Even though I probably missed out on a good investment, if I don’t understand it and I don’t have a passion for exactly the use of it and the mechanics of it, I won’t invest in it. If the stock starts going down, I won’t be able to tell you why it’s going down versus something that I understand and I’ll understand why something is not working. Therefore, I have a better ability to know if there’s a bottom coming.

What I do is I look for a couple of things. I always tell people in Clubhouse, “I invest in things that do well in good times and even better in bad times.” For example, I have a huge position in Campbell Soup. It seems random but CPB is one of my hugest holdings. Why? When the economy is good, people are buying kitchen goods and they buy soup. When times are bad, all those people that now can’t afford restaurants who are online, go right away and buy Campbell Soup. Security blanket, knowing that when the economy goes down, that product is going to be staying and is going to be needed.

Other investments that I’m in like that would be AT&T even though I’m in a little bit less because they’re having some issues with their dividend. For example, I know in bad times, people are not going to cancel their phone bills. People are going to still need their phone bill and they’re going to need their phone line. You have to ask yourself, let’s say you had to take a 40% cut in your income, what is something you absolutely would not cut spending on? Housing, your phone and low-price food goods. That’s what I have the bulk of my money in. I have the bulk of my money in affordable housing. I invest in HUD housing. Both in the stock market and in real life, I buy and sell HUD properties.

REITs, which are Real Estate Investment Trusts, are like stocks that represent real estate. I look for properties that are in markets that are strong in both economic times. I’m a big believer in senior housing. I own a lot of SNH, which is because when in bad economic times, young people usually lose their housing because they lose their jobs but older people don’t because they’re on social security. I like investments that are more government-based and government funding.

That’s how my brain works in terms of looking for investments but what it’s down to is doing your own research, learning about the mechanics of stocks, what a stock is and what a bond is. I love bonds. I have more bonds than I do stocks. I believe in researching and studying what these things are. Not what’s the best stock to pick but what is a stock? What is dividend income? I make income from my stock investments without having to sell any stocks and people don’t realize that most of these companies pay you to hold on to their stock and you can turn that into a major income stream.

It’s important for people to research and understand that. That’s what a dividend is. That’s why you could make money in the stock market whether it goes up or down. Unless the company becomes insolvent, many of these companies will always pay a dividend. AT&T is an example. I never sell my AT&T unless I feel I’m over-invested in it. I always keep some of it and when there’s a big market crash, that’s when I buy more. The real key is to buy into downturns, not freaking out and selling into downturns. You wait for the crashes to invest more and then whether a stock is up or down, if it has a dividend you’ll continue to make money with it.

 

That’s how you can buy the shares for less because they’ve crashed.

I’m big into these corporate bonds. In 2008 when we had the big crash, the bonds lost 42% of their value but they maintained their dividend. For example, whatever my money you had in it, every month, you still got your income check. If you were smart, you didn’t even look at it and you said, “That numbers down but I’m not going to stress on it.” You collect your check and you just let it ride all the way back up. All of those funds have returned to where they were before the 2008 crisis.

If you’re smart, you bought into them during that time and you would have more than doubled your money by investing in the downturn. It’s about reading. I recommend a lot of good books like Rich Dad Poor Dad. I tell people, “If you’re interested in stocks, start watching CNBC, download the app on your phone, watch these news channels and learn what they’re talking about. If there’s a term you don’t understand, google it.” That’s it.

That’s so helpful. There are certain things that I never was taught about and I know that there are a lot of people like me.

You’re not alone. I just happen to come from a family and a background where people are into stocks. It was something that was talked about at the dinner table. They don’t teach it in school. We’re mediocre when it comes to economic education in this country. It leads people to be credit-dependent and job-dependent, which is on purpose.

The funny thing is my parents are educated financially. They have these capital investors that they use and they have a certain amount of money that they pull out every year to use in the budget from that. My sister and I were laughing because we were like, “If they, God forbid, were to pass away, we would probably walk into that probate office and not know what the hell was going on,” because they keep us in the dark in a way. It’s weird. They don’t want us to have to worry. My sister and I want to know. We want to be knowledgeable about these subjects but in a way, they’re trying to protect us. I wish they would involve me more.

The more interest you show in learning about it, maybe you can talk to them about it. Tell them that I’m helping you understand it. It’s a weird thing in this culture. My family is similar. My father did and didn’t talk to me much about it. When I started making my own money and started my own business, all of a sudden, he couldn’t wait to tell me about the deals he was working on. He almost wants to show me that he’s still wheeling and dealing out there. Before I was doing all these things in my business, he was quiet about it.

Sometimes it’s weird. Parents don’t know how to approach it. If you have parents who are successful financially, they may feel like, “I don’t want them to know how much money we have.” There’s a lot of wealthy people that don’t have any idea how their money is managed. They’re just good at saving and not overspending but outside that, they have no clue what they’re doing. That’s also an issue and that’s partly how some of these big funds make so much money. People just hand them their money and they collect their monthly checks.

They go to a meeting with them once a month. They’re on top of it for sure.

Invest in things that do well in good times and even better in bad times. Click To Tweet

That bodes well. I manage all my accounts myself, almost to the point of being OCD. I’ll notice any of these moves in anything. It’s almost a little neurotic. That has definitely helped me. I recommend people to be like that when it comes to their finances. Don’t just check out. You got to stay on top of it. Don’t trust anybody. There’s no one you can trust with your money but yourself. It’s one of those things with money where it’s not like, “Can you show up next week and walk my dog? Can you remember to pick this up from the post office for me?” Some people treat their money like that, like, “Can you let me know how much I have in this account? I don’t want to deal with it. I’m not good with money. You just tell me.” That’s how unfortunate people get scammed. Sometimes you get scammed by institutions so it’s important to stay involved.

It’s true because some people are not of the generation that balances their checkbook so they go by what is on their Chase app or whatever. Sometimes they don’t notice that $100 is gone here or $100 got charged here. They don’t notice. I definitely keep on top of that. My sister is younger than I and she physically balances her checkbook, which is cute.

Going away from the financial stuff, I want to talk about marketing and branding and how you branded yourself personally. When you were first starting up and you first decided, “I’m going to go into marketing. I’m going to go into branding myself,” and all of those things, what were your first steps? What were your struggles? What was your game plan? I know you had a vision for it.

The first thing was learning how to create a brand name that was unique and I was able to get SEO control over it. Bander was something that I used as an acronym since I was young when I was a hip-hop producer and stuff. I realized soon that there are oil firms in Saudi Arabia that use Bander for a completely unrelated thing and because they’re wealthy, it was difficult to compete with them in SEO.

Around that time, I happened to start DJing because I was originally only a producer and composer. I had all these friends who were like, “You should learn how to DJ, too so you can perform your songs out at festivals.” That’s when I was like, “I’m going to go with DJ Bander and Bander Productions.” I went all-in with those. There is no other DJ Bander and there’s no other Bander Productions so I flooded the internet with content, press, music and partnerships that I created, which over time, gave me all of the Google locked-in SEO that I needed to establish the brand online.

Now, you can finance that SEO. I did it before you could do it that way. I did it from the mud, as they say. I did it from just having to put out content on my own. I had to brand myself so much, put so many things out there myself and stay so active on social media, like hashtagging DJ Bander. For years, I had to do it. Eventually, it got me a Google Panel then it led to Facebook verification and then into Instagram verification and all that stuff.

What I try to do now is tell clients to take what took me close to 8 to 9 years to do manually to 1 year or 2 to 3. That was the original thing. Honestly, the digital marketing stuff came later in my career. The reason I got into it is that I was realizing, “There are so many scamming hustlers out here saying that they can do verification, they can do Spotify and they can get you fans.” There was so much BS and it was so expensive. I was like, “This can’t be.”

I already was established financially so I was like, “Let me try to figure out how they do all this stuff and charge half what all these people are trying to charge.” I don’t need to rob all these people. I was already wealthy before I started a digital marketing company. I was like, “Let me create a company that has a great value add that competes with all these gigantic PR firms, that’s priced at a boutique price.”

That’s how I found my success and I got my clients because I’m like, “I could spend this much with Bander and I’m getting the same thing I spent three times the amount doing with somebody else.” That’s what got me into it. I have no interest in fake marketing. It does no good to get people fake followers or to get people fake dreams online because, at the end of the day, it will not lead to anything. I learned about it because of the goal of wanting my music to be heard.

 

I’ve been doing social media for years. The problem with me is that I rebranded myself so many times during that process that when it finally got to Stephanie Joplin and The Luxury Dropout, I had to rework everything. I’m mostly male audience because I was a sports journalist and I was covering MMA. I was posting a more sexy type of content. I wasn’t being vulnerable in saying, “I feel crappy today,” and having that resonate with other women or whatever I would talk about. Anxiety, weight loss, depression and all of that stuff that I talk about now, I would never talk about before because I didn’t think that was sexy.

“I couldn’t be vulnerable. I didn’t want anyone to think they could break me. I can’t be like that.” That was my mentality at the time. That’s where I found the success. It’s so slow. With your help, it’s been better but it’s still a slow process to turning it around and having a more female-based audience. The engagement from the females is great but it’s still at 80/20 when it should be 70/30 or whatever it is.

I tell you what I told my clients and everybody I work with. There’s no magic bullet to creating a fan base. Even me, I still continue to work on it. The key is content that people love and then also projecting a lifestyle that people want to connect to and enjoy. They want to connect to what content you’re going to provide whether it’s a song, a podcast or a video and then they also want to be inspired by something that keeps them entertained and keeps them connected.

We live in a dissociated, lonely time. What people need to think about when they’re building their brands online is creating something that gives people a sense of comfort and identity that they can connect with. More from Instagram and social media and less from TV. In a way, you have to see your brand as your own TV station. That’s how you have to look at it.

I always make a joke. I tell my friends that when I post something, I imagine an HBO presents, the little thing coming right before The Sopranos will start. II wanted to feel HBO presents right before my post. To do that, you have to create a combination of, you’re hustling but you’re relaxed so you don’t over-post but you don’t also check out and disappear.

I struggle with that. All these things that I’ve been taught like, “You’ve got to post once a day or once every other day. If you go too long without posting then the algorithm is going to kick you out.” All these things about the algorithm that changes every day and you can’t even keep up with it anyway. It’s definitely been insightful with us chatting about strategy. One time, I was like, “Which picture should I post?” You said, “Don’t post the way you think it needs to be posted from your heart. Post what you want to post. Post what you feel good about.” I’m like, “That makes sense.”

People are so worried about what other people think is cool. You have to trust in your own vision for what you think is dope. Otherwise, it’s not going to be original. It’s not going to be you. I’m getting into these debates with a lot of people about, “You got to post a bunch.” You should be regularly active on Instagram. There’s something important that you’re talking about when you post.

On Instagram, I posted this random thing at a sushi restaurant. It doesn’t even have a logical explanation for why I did it. It’s a lifestyle thing but the caption is about something specific. I got 50 streams on my new song that dropped and it’s still going up from there. That was the reason I was posting but I didn’t want to post a screenshot of it. People can go ahead and look so they’ll see the numbers themselves.

What I tell people to do is have reasoning behind what they do. If you want to post five times in a row within one week, it should be about a reason. For example, let’s say I went to a convention. I met three big celebrities and I closed two deals at the convention. There you go. That’s a reason to post five different times about the same convention. Post with this celebrity then post with this one. I’m not a fan of posting for the sake of having new content up there. People get fatigued.

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I don’t want to open my Instagram and see the same person dropping something every day. If you’re going to do that then the content needs to be fresh. I do follow a couple of influencers who I like. I’ll give a shout-out to Mr. Organic. He’s cool. He’s a clothing designer and he raps. He posts a lot more than I would post. Some of the posts don’t even numerically always do that well but what I respect about him is that every post is an original cool piece of video content. He has a full-time YouTube video crew with him and he’s constantly shooting videos with his cars, his house and all this stuff. Even though he posts more than I think is necessary to post, it’s not redundant or boring because each post has different content.

You had said to me, “You need to take more pictures.” That’s something that you and I had discussed when we first started working together. I know but the only thing is I always take them myself with a Bluetooth clicker. I have reached out to photographers and then we’ll do photo sessions. The beach one that I did is a little difficult to post too many in a row of those because they’re redundant. I could post a couple and then, maybe down the line, post more. I have another shoot so that’ll be in the mix.

It’s a lot for a woman to go through sometimes. When you want to do a nice-looking photoshoot, you’ve got to get the makeup done, get your hair done and choose an outfit. It’s this whole production. I know it doesn’t always have to be that way because I’ve lived off my own content forever. It’s nice to have proper headshots to send in for press stuff. Even the stuff that you and I’ve been working on for press, the photoshoot that I did, I’m like, “Now I can use those headshots for this article.” That’s been helpful. It’s good to have in your pocket.

What my company does is focuses on increasing real engagement with what you already have up there. I would rather have one post a week that does well and use it to drive traffic to your brand than constantly having to have new pictures. I’ll leave one photo and I’ll keep running a promo on it. I like when people go to my page. Every post has to have thousands of likes and hundreds of comments because then it’s showing others real engagement. “When he puts something out there, people respond.”

There’s also an element of wanting people to know that I’m busy. I’m running three companies and I have a lot going on. I don’t have time. I’m not just sitting around and worrying about what content I’m posting. There might even be a couple of days where I don’t even have time to post anything on Instagram at all. There’s nothing wrong with that either. It’s okay to be busier than being able to post about what you’re doing.

You are a busy guy. For me, with my audience, if I don’t post on my Instagram stories and they miss it, they reach out to my friends. “Is Stephanie okay? What’s going on?” It’s not that I feel obligated. It’s that I feel needed and I’m like, “This is a great opportunity for me to reach people and advise them to the best of my abilities.”

I have that, too. I had a family friend pass away and I decided out of respect to go silent on Instagram for 3 or 4 days or 5 days. People were shook. People were DM-ing like, “What’s going on? Where’s the content? Where’s Bander?” I have people that I’m like, “Really? You people are melting because I’m not posting. That’s so cute.” Sometimes it could just be a meme for the day. It could be one little thing like a picture of a sunset. You don’t always have to be like, “I don’t have any content right now, what am I going to do?” If you don’t have any content, it’s okay. Let’s focus on blowing up what you do have out there.

If you’re trying to build your brand and you’re in the building stage. You don’t have an established brand. You’re not verified yet and that type of thing. Where do you stand on posting polarizing content? For example, you’re pro or anti-vax or you’re pro or anti-abortion or something that’s extremely polarizing like that.

Personally, this is a difficult decision that I’ve made because I have strong opinions politically and culturally in all this stuff. What I realize is that you have to be careful with posting about all that stuff because you might have somebody who’s a big supporter of you, who’s powerful and can do a lot for your career. You could post something like, “I like Biden,” or, “I like Trump,” and that guy likes Biden or that guy likes Trump. Now he doesn’t like you. You burned a relationship with somebody that you could have completely avoided by not bringing that up. I have this conversation a lot with my parents because my parents were politically active in the ‘60s. They think I should be more active in talking out there with how many followers I have.

 

I don’t get into it. I’m careful not to make any of my political affiliations public. During the elections, I only encourage people to vote and things like that. I will speak out on stuff but not specific. When you’re building your brand but even when you have an established brand, you will pay a price for taking a strong stance on either side of any big issue. People will ask if that’s worth it to them.

You have to be somebody who believes that being strongly worded about your beliefs is the most important thing to you. You don’t care about any other thing that it could cost you, including financial hardship. That’s what I tell people, “Be prepared for the rainstorm.” If you want to bring it like that, more power to you. You got famous comedians like Michael Rapaport. He puts his views but he pays a price for that.

I like him that he does.

I like him, too. If you look through the comments, I wouldn’t want to wake up to that every day.

I wouldn’t even look at my comments.

That’s what I’m like. You’re also inviting the crazier people when you start doing like that. I like that little bit of mystery. If I thought that my opinion on something, one way or another, could make this consequential difference in world affairs by speaking on it then I would think differently. I have an established brand and I have a few hundred thousand followers, which is not insignificant but do I think that I could sway an election or sway a social issue with the Supreme Court? No. Why give myself that vulnerability when I don’t have a lot of leverage anyway to make a big difference? That’s how I look at it.

I had someone ask me on my Ask Me Anything, “I don’t know whether or not to get vaccinated.” I’m like, “I am not answering that question with how I think. I’m going to tell you how you should think and that is you should talk to your loved ones and the family that you’re around and make a decision based on that.” That’s it. I’m not going to say whether I’m pro or against because I cannot tell you what’s best for you. How would I ever know that? I know what’s best for me. That’s all I know.

Tell me about networking and stuff like that. For a lot of people, it’s difficult to put themselves out there. In a place like LA, it might be a little bit easier. You can go out and network a lot easier than you can in Cleveland or something. If you’re in a smaller town and you can use the internet or use Meetups or go out to clubs, what do you recommend for people who are looking for connects? Would you recommend engaging with them online? How did you make your connects?

I would recommend utilizing all that but be careful with people that you meet online. As someone who’s dealt with people not being who they say they are online, you have to be careful because there’s a lot of scammer type of people out there. They can oftentimes take advantage of people through the internet and finding people that are way outside of social. You have to use some caution with that.

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People find me through social media. I utilize Clubhouse. It’s how we met. I utilize those rooms because they’re a nice way to do that. As COVID gets better, people need to be out there. Investing in and establishing your brand will help you get more traction with the people you meet when you’re in social situations.

You hand somebody your card and you say, “Follow me on Insta.” The bigger of a footprint you have, the more likely that person is going to DM you and be like, “Yeah, let’s definitely connect and let’s work.” You have to do all things. You have to be out there networking, you have to be networking online and then continuing to create content which people will then see, which gets engagement. It’s like working multiple cylinders at the same time. It’s what it comes down to.

I’m going to ask you an interesting question because as an attractive woman, when you want to network with a man and you’re sliding into their DMS as an attractive woman who they do not know, what is the best approach to make sure that that man knows that you’re there for strictly business? What do you do if he starts to hit on you? What’s your advice?

That’s always an issue. There’s always this unknown connotation when people of the opposite sex are talking and doing business. It’s like, “Is there another there and there?” For the most part, it is best to not overthink it. The problem is that, when you’re attractive, there’s always going to be that element there. You have to assume that there’s a possibility that any guy that you’re talking about may have those thoughts or may possibly try to have those interests and you have to simply stay focused on what is your goal in the networking situation. Is there a specific reason you’re reaching out to that person?

Keep the conversation about that without having to necessarily be cold because this is a complicated, interesting thing. I’ve dealt with this in the past in my relationships, for example, where there are some people who only want to do business with you. In the back of their mind, they’re like, “They might also like me.” It’s a thin red line because if you’re too warm, you can wash away the whole original reason why the person is reaching out to you and then it becomes that. If you’re too cold then the person feels a certain type of way and then they don’t want to work with you.

It’s not easy. It’s definitely a difficult thing. You’ve struggled with it over the years. You don’t know for sure. I’ve struggled with how I’ve built my brand and how I have to engage and stuff like that. Now that I’m verified, I have to be even more careful because everything is scrutinized. Once you’re a verified public figure, celebrity or whatever you want to call it, you have to be careful about how you speak to people online because you lose your check. People can come at you a certain type of way. It’s a great question. It’s not an easy answer, to be honest. A lot of men are bad with social cues. I don’t know why.

It’s weird. Women will always be like, “You’re so good. You always get what’s going on.” Maybe it was because I was raised by a single mother for the most part. She raised me as a strong woman who told me and put me on a game when I was young. A lot of guys didn’t have that kind of upbringing or something. I had a tough older sister who’s kept it super real with me my whole life. There are guys that didn’t have that upbringing so they’re clueless out here. I don’t have a perfect answer for it other than you’re going to have to find out what works. Don’t be afraid if a conversation starts getting weird. Keep it real with them. Sometimes, you have to have that conversation offline, on a call or something because it can get misconstrued in texts as well.

There’s still a lot of quid pro quo going on. I’m like, “Really? It’s 2021. We’re still doing this?” I remember when I used to do interviews with athletes and they were like, “What do I get?” I’m like, “You get nothing. What are you talking about?” This is crazy.

That definitely comes with it. You’re always going to do that if you put yourself in a position where you’re going to be a public figure in an industry that’s dominated by the opposite sex. If you’re a woman in sports, you’re going to be dealing with that a lot. It’s weird things. Over the years, I’ve had issues with it, too. I produce a lot of singers and some of them are attractive. It’s been an issue in my relationships in the past. A lot of girls don’t like that. It can make you uncomfortable like, “Do I even want this girl to come through to my studio? I know that she’s so attractive that if she posts me, people are going to feel a type of way about it.” It’s not easy. It’s something that people deal with. It’s why in my industry, relationships have struggles and have issues.

 

Where does your love life fit in with all this? I want to tell you this quick story before we get into that. I wanted to have this guy I found on TikTok on my show. He had some interesting content. We hopped on a phone call to discuss and we talked about it for twenty minutes and then he paused. I talk about this in the show all the time because this is every man’s way to hit on me. They’re like, “What ethnicity are you?” I’m like, “Here we go again. This is going the wrong way.” Ever since, he’s been calling me every day. I’m like, “Screw it. I can’t have you on my show.” When I commented on his content, I did not say, “You’re hot.” I said, “I would love to have you on my show. What about that did you not comprehend?”

That right away paints this non-sophisticated thing. It’s how I look at it. Somebody is that thirsty that they can’t even be a vibrant guest without this uncomfortable dynamic around stuff. It’s easier as a guy in the industry because women are raised to not put themselves out there. Even if a girl got a crazy crush on you, rarely is she going to cross any boundary or do something to make you uncomfortable. It is easier in that sense as a guy. When you’re an attractive woman, it sucks for you. Guys are supposed to do the first move and hit on the girl. That’s the way it goes.

How do you even have a love life? First of all, from the moment you wake up to the moment you sleep, how do you have time to invest in your love life? Is that something that is not at the forefront of your mind?

I put the time into my love life. It’s been something that has been an issue over the years. It can present challenges. I’ve been able to make it work. The person I’m seeing, she’s somebody who understands what’s going on. It hasn’t been without struggles around it. I’m not in the profession that is exactly what she saw for herself.

The biggest issue that I’ve had in relationships over the years is that they’re like, “I’m not trying to date a music producer, DJ-type. I like you so much that I’ll put up with it because you bring all this other stuff to the table.” Unfortunately, it’s the case that I do feel that more often than not that. Women tolerate the public figure side of me.

I’ve rarely met a girl that thinks that’s genuinely great. Few women are thrilled about the fact that I have lots of attractive women that follow me and comment on my Instagram. That’s natural. There’s an element where I get that, too. I’ve always dated girls that are more low-key, to be honest. I prefer to be the only public figure in the relationship. There’s only room for one of us and normally, it’s me.

I prefer it when a guy has no social media. I’m fine with that.

Everybody naturally does. At least for me, I can tell my girl, “Girls don’t aggressively pursue men online. It would be different.” My girl said to me, “What if I had 100,000 followers?” “No, it wouldn’t be the same.” It’s not a quid pro quo. It wouldn’t be the same because I guarantee your DMs would not look like my DMs. That’s a straight fact. I’ll look into my story feed, for example and I’ll see some amazing and beautiful models looking at my story but they’re not DMing me like, “What’s up, babe?” If that was the other way around, their DMs would be flooded with messages.

To be honest, it’s one of those things where it’s not the same. That’s the only time that I have conflict. In my opinion, I can get pushback from people around this. It’s not the same dynamic, a popular male figure versus a popular female figure. You’re dealing with a completely different thing. If it was the same, how come most big Instagram model females have their DMs and their message requests completely blocked and they don’t even read them? When I DM a big male figure personality person, normally, he’ll see the DM and tap it right away. That’s because women have to put those settings in privacy mode way more than guys. That’s the point.

Getting older is an interesting process in which we become the person we always were supposed to be. Click To Tweet

The long-short answer is it’s challenging. I seem to find a way to make it work. I’m also independent. I do like relationships but I’m also somebody as an artist. I’m not a big cohabiter. I like living alone. It’s important for me to have my own independent life and my own space where I can do my music and everything. I don’t work well being around somebody 24/7 that cohabit. That’s where it’s a challenge.

I work from home for the most part. For certain relationships, when people have their own lives during the day and they’re separate and they’re at their offices all day, they say, “It’s nice to come home after a long day to somebody.” When you’re living an entrepreneurial life and you’re independent, it’s difficult to have a lifestyle like that. You’re going to feel smothered all the time by anybody, no matter who it is.

I have the same thing going for me. I’ll get asked out. Sometimes, I don’t even want to leave the little comfort of my home. I don’t even want to deal with it unless it’s someone I already know. If it’s a guy I already know, that’s different. I don’t have to go out and be interviewed. If it’s a new date that I have to go out and make an effort and talk about myself to where they don’t know anything about what I do, I have to explain. I want to be like, “I’m an accountant,” at that point. I don’t want to explain social media.

My last boyfriend told his family that I sell things online and not sex. That’s word-for-word, he told them. I’m like, “I can’t explain these things to you anymore. I’m done.” I’ve got one more question for you. It’s a question that I ask all the guests on my show. If you were to walk down the street and see twenty-year-old Zach walking up towards you and you got to go give that buddy a big hug and give him one piece of advice at your age now, what would you tell twenty-year-old Zach?

I would tell him to never take a break from music and work harder and put out more stuff. I have put out a lot of successful music. I could have put out even more. I spent a lot of years perfecting my sound and worrying that things weren’t good enough when I should have flooded the internet. I eventually ended up doing that but I would have done it even sooner. The biggest thing I would say is, “You’re ready. Go and put stuff out.”

I love this quote, “Getting older is an interesting process in which we become the person we always were supposed to be.” What’s true about it is when you’re twenty, it’s your time to have the mentality that you have when you’re in your 30s. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way. It doesn’t work backward. That’s why I love talking to my older family members who are in the 60s and 70s because their mind is refined.

We don’t pay enough respect to the elderly. To them, we’re like, “They’re older now.” They’re in the most sophisticated state of where they are. The twenty-year-old is this insecure blob who doesn’t believe in himself. Some do. Some are blessed to have that young confidence. The main thing I would say to myself is to go in at that age. That was an age where I was much like, “What am I doing? Should I keep doing this business? Should I do music?” I could have continued to do both at an accelerated pace. “The hindsight is always 20/20,” it’s how my father used to tell me.

How can the audience support you and your music? We know about your single that’s charting. What do you have that’s coming up?

It would be great for everybody to give me a follow and shoot me a DM on Instagram so I know who you are and I can support what you’re doing. Stay tuned for my upcoming single. I got an EDM single dropping. I’m working on the cover art and all that stuff. That’s on the way. I’m going to be also focusing on some downtempo releases as well with my other artists. Both ZeZe and Sonny have new music coming out and then possibly an EP later in the fall or an album. I’m working on that towards the winter. I got a lot of stuff in the works. In the meantime, I’m still excited about Fast. It’s been going well. I’m doing new Spotify campaigns. I’ll be sharing that as well. Support the playlist. That will all be dropping.

Fast is the single. That’s amazing. Congratulations. I’m proud of you. I’m glad to be your friend and a part of your life.

 

Thank you, Stephanie.

I enjoyed our conversation. I hope you did, too.

I loved it. Congrats on the show. I’m excited for it to drop. This is great.

Thank you. I’ll be touching base with you shortly.

Let’s run it up. You already know. Thank you so much.

—

That was quite the episode. I honestly never learned more in a session. Zach is truly someone that I go to for a lot of advice personally with my marketing and branding myself. He’s taught me a lot about the reasons why I think things and why they’re wrong in the nicest way. Definitely give him a follow and he will respond to your DMs. He does help with marketing and branding. If you’re looking to brand yourself, he does all of that type of consulting work. If you are a young artist who’s looking for a mentor, reach out to him. Also, make sure to stream his music and support him. He is one of those people who wants to help others like I am. Until next time, stay well. Sending you lots of love and see you on the next one.

Important Links:

• Zach Schnall
• Clubhouse – @DJBander
• Rich Dad Poor Dad
• Instagram – @DJBander
• Spotify – DJ Bander

About Zach Schnall aka DJ Bander

DJ Bander is a Composer, Producer, DJ and digital marketing expert originally from Brooklyn, NY. His background in both music composition, piano and finance; propelled him to his current levels of success in the industry.

Currently signed to Sony BMG via The Orchard, his label Bander Productions recently secured a top 50 iTunes dance charting placement along side Daft Punk and Calvin Harris. With over a million cumulative streams and climbing, his brand is now well established and versatile.

He is currently working on new singles with his artists and a potential album for the fall.

Follow him on IG @DJBander

DJBander.com

Zachary Kern-Schnall
Sony Top 100 Charting Producer
CRE Investor
@DJBander
Featured in LA Weekly
www.DJBander.com
www.instagram.com/DJBander
Ambassador to Yamaha Music & OM Media

 

Going through a breakup can be one of the most painful experiences we experience, whether we are 14 or 40. Is the world ending? Will we ever have a day where the pain eases? Why did I allow him or her to treat me this way? There are so many questions to unpack. We learn many lessons as we grow older, but wherever you are on your journey, breakup coach Dorothy Johnson is here to help us out. Navigating the choppy waters of breaking up and losing love while turning your pain into power is Dorothy’s specialty. Stephanie spills some of her own tea and Dorothy reveals why she got into this area of psychotherapy in the first place.

—

Watch the episode here:

Listen to the podcast here:

Anyone Who Has Ever Been Through A Breakup Needs To Hear This With Dorothy Johnson

Dorothy helps us navigate the choppy waters of breaking up and losing love while Stephanie spills some of her own tea.

We have a special guest. She is a Breakup Coach. Her name is Dorothy Johnson. She is based out of Boston. She was introduced to me by my friend, Rosie Abrams, who was on the show as well. We went into every single breakup topic that you could possibly imagine. I shared some super funny stories about my personal breakups, the lessons I’ve learned along the way, and some of the advice that I give to my followers on social media, the questions that I get asked.

 

I also asked you what questions do you wanted me to ask Dorothy and I delivered. You will also learn about Dorothy’s three months no-fail Get Over Your Ex method using three different steps. She goes into that here on the show. Grab a snack. Grab a drink. Grab your favorite stuffed animal. Grab a Kleenex box. If you’re going through it, I feel you. We’ve all been there and gentlemen also. That’s why I’m here. I’m bringing you the best of the best. I’m bringing you the experts to help you get back on track once again and get you feeling more like yourself. Without further ado, please welcome Dorothy Johnson to the show.

—

I’ve got a special guest. I am looking forward to getting down to the nitty-gritty with my guest. Her name is Dorothy Johnson. She is a Breakup Coach and a mentor to many who are going through it. These days, it is hard to go through a breakup because of social media. Dorothy is out there doing the Lord’s work.

To get over your ex, you have to learn how to reduce the desire for that person. Click To Tweet

I love you. Thank you so much. It’s so fun.

We met through my friend, Rosie Abrams, who’s on the show as well. I did a poll or a questionnaire on my Instagram. I was like, “Does anyone have any questions?” It’s a huge list of questions. Some of them are mine as well but there are a lot and I have more on my phone that I didn’t get to even write down. There are some that are specific as well. They are important to talk about because a lot of people are scared to speak up. Specifically, I’m talking about one of my friends who is going through a gender transition. She is struggling with her breakup because her breakup was because she wanted to go through this transition. It’s stuff like that that’s particular but you never know who else is struggling.

I’m down to answer all the questions. I could talk about breakups all day so I’m here.

You might be covering stuff that you’ve already covered but maybe some of my audience will trickle over into yours. I’m hoping.

 

I talk about the same stuff over and over again because it’s always going to be new or you might hear it in a fresh new way.

I feel like you’re not going to hear it until you’re ready to hear it. You could tell your friend until you’re blue in the damn face not to be with this guy, but they’re not going to listen.

They have come to that conclusion themselves. We cannot force the conclusion on them.

I’ve learned that over the years. It’s funny because everyone’s like, “You give such amazing advice.” I’m like, “I know. I’m single. I get it.” I give the most legit fire relationship advice. I’m single but I feel like it’s because the bar is low for men that they still can’t climb over it and I had it. The second that they do anything out of line, I’m like, “No. Next.” Maybe it’s too much. Maybe I should ease back a little bit.

Saying that a relationship completed itself instead of ended is an easier way to find acceptance and create peace and relief in your mind. Click To Tweet

I don’t think so. If you know what you want and those are authentic wants for you, then that’s not a problem.

I made a whole manifestation list. I folded it up and I put it in my bedroom drawer. I’m like, “My husband has this,” in the present tense. If you don’t have those things, you don’t get to be my husband. We were talking about Instagram and you said you love my stories. I’m excited that you love my stories.

They’re fun to watch. I’m totally obsessed.

I got to start with an anecdote because you’re not my close friend yet. You will be. This happened to me where I had an ex-boyfriend who I had blocked on everything. There’s a meme floating around out there where it’s like, “When you blocked your ex everywhere except for eBay, that’s where they contact you.” It’s that. I have him blocked on everything. This is my ex from 2012. It’s a long time ago. He Venmo-ed me $0.10 to try to talk to me. It wasn’t the amount of money. It was so he could send me a message. Does that make sense?

Yes, but it’s funny. If you’re going to do that, go big or go home.

I had a lot of women be like, “$0.10?” I’m like, “Knowing him, it’s not the point of the money. It’s that he wanted to get to me somehow.” Everyone always says, “If he wants you, he would. They’ll find a damn way to get them to Venmo you.”

 

I recorded a podcast episode called When your ex comes back. It’s interesting because a lot of people are like, “What if he comes back?” It isn’t a question about, “What if he comes back?” It is always a question about when. They always circle back around. It is a fact over and over.

I’ve only had one guy in my entire dating career ever not come back. It’s because he’d already gone back to another ex, and then they got married shortly thereafter. That was the only one that didn’t come back.

Who’s to say he’s not going to?

I don’t know. I’m going to say he’s a wuss. I don’t want to say the P-word because that’s offensive. I don’t know if he has the balls to do it. I want to talk about social media first because this is a topic that’s raw and real for me, especially when I went through breakups in high school and in college, it was hard. Don’t get me wrong. I wasn’t refreshing my feed, seeing if he was with another girl or constantly checking to see if he’d messaged me. What role do you think this has played mentally on both men and women coming into the digital age with regards to breakups?

It’s huge. I remember going through my most traumatic breakup which is a few years ago. I remember having a conversation with my dad who is a psychologist. I remember him being dumbfounded to the point where he was like, “Honestly, Dorothy, I don’t know how to relate to you because when I would break up with a girl or a girl broke up with me, I never saw her. I didn’t know where she was. I didn’t know what she was doing. I didn’t know if she was dating someone new. You know everything.”

To forgive is to let go of anger and resentment. Click To Tweet

He had moved on rather quickly. He posted this picture of him with the new girl. It was traumatic and jarring to me. I’m like, “Did everyone forget about me?” Everyone’s saying, “Congratulations.” Half the people who are saying, “You guys are so cute,” think it’s me. The other half are excited and happy for them. I’m like, “What? We were in a seven-year relationship. What has happened?”

Is this them getting engaged?

This was them starting to date. It was a month after the end of our seven-year relationship. It was like, “How does this happen? How is everyone else okay with this?” I remember it was jarring and fascinating for me. My dad could not understand it. It’s a whole new ballgame. The other heartbreak that I had was not as traumatic or jarring was in high school. We might have had Myspace at that time but we weren’t spending our time on it. We didn’t have smartphones so if you were away from the house and you weren’t next to your computer, it was so much easier. You then would hear through other people telling you, “He hung out with this person.” It was less traumatic and less accessible to look at and spend time on.

It’s one of the most common things that come up. One of the first podcast episodes that I launched was How do you stop stalking his or her social media. When I teach my clients about it, I talk about it and the word that I use is an urge. You have a strong, intense urge or desire to check his social media or to reach out to him or whatever that is. You’ve got to learn how to build a relationship with those “urges” of not making it mean something bad about yourself, not making it mean you shouldn’t have those urges. Of course, you do.

 

You have an addiction set in your brain where you want to reward yourself with this person. You’d get a dopamine hit, and then that whole cycle would startup. When you remove the reward, it’s like, “I don’t get the dopamine hit.” It builds up stronger as if you were to immediately cold turkey, stop eating any sugar or stop having any caffeine. You get those caffeine headaches or the sugar headaches. It’s the same type of thing but with love.

That makes sense because when I was with my ex, I remember he would be next to me sleeping and I would go through his Facebook pictures inquisitively. For a lot of years, I haven’t done the deep dive stalking that I probably should do. I remember it was maybe two months in and I was like, “He looks cute there.” You’re right, it was a dopamine hit but when I saw a picture of him at this mutual friend’s wedding, I wanted to vomit. It wasn’t because I missed him. It wasn’t that feeling in your stomach that you are upset. It was more like, “I don’t want to see that guy.”

It’s fascinating that you say that because the number one thing that I teach people is getting over your ex, which is learning how to reduce the desire for that person. When I talk about heartbreak, we can address all of the breakup symptoms by going no contact and doing all this fancy stuff that’s out on the internet or you can address the root cause, which is the desire that you have for your ex. Desire is created through your thinking.

The way that I describe this is I love ice cream analogies so we’re probably going to hear lots of them. I used to love ice cream. I’d have ice cream after my dinner almost every night. The way that I described ice cream was it’s my favorite food. It’s delicious. It’s gooey. It melts in my mouth, the caramel, the chocolate chunks. That’s beautiful and amazing. When I describe it like that, it’s very desirable versus when I describe ice cream as it’s simply sugar and milk. That’s not as desirable.

Get excited about your future. Build a life that's bigger and better than the one that you had with your ex. Click To Tweet

I’m also slightly lactose intolerant.

It becomes less desirable based on the way that you think about that specific thing. The same thing with your ex, you’ve got to learn how to reduce desire through changing your thoughts. You’ve done that already with your ex so much so that you feel like vomiting.

The reason being is because I did exactly as you said. I talked it out with someone who knew him mutually and it was an older adult. I laid out on the table everything that I did not like about him like he smoked a pack a day, he only drank full-sugar soda, he only ate fast food, he would belch, fart, burp and go to bed with a full belly. He was awful at making love, all these things that were repulsive to me. Even though I was still hurting because he did some fucked-up shit but that’s for another day, that list has helped me. When I saw him in that photo, he was sweaty, bloated, swollen and drunk. I was talking to my sister and I was like, “Can you imagine if I would have had to take care of him after this wedding drunk as hell? No, I don’t want to deal with it.”

See how not desirable that is? Even the way that you described your ex in that way was not desirable. A lot of us probably wouldn’t desire that. Here’s the other thing because people will get hung up on like, “What if my ex was truly amazing and awesome and all these beautiful things?” That can be true. We don’t necessarily have to make this person to be a bad person or not amazing. Recognizing, “Just because that person had that one quality, doesn’t mean I’m not going to create it with someone else or find it in someone else.”

 

What was that thing that you posted and it was like it’s a relationship being completed? That resonated with me because that doesn’t mean it’s the end of your story. It means that part of your story is closed.

A lot of times we’ll say, “The relationship ended. That means I’ve failed,” versus, “The relationship completed itself.” Even that version of the relationship because you might have a relationship with that person down the road, and it doesn’t mean it has to be the same relationship that you had with them the first time around. Talking about relationships in a way where we’re saying, “That completed itself,” not necessarily ended, is such an easier way to not only find acceptance but create a lot of peace and relief in your own mind.

The peace and relief thing is you always tell your friends who are grieving, crying and inconsolable, “It’s going to be okay. It’s going to take time.” You wish you could pass the time for them. It’s almost like you have to be in the trenches, in that nitty-gritty, depressive state to get through to the other side sometimes. I’ve been like that but then I’ve had breakups where I haven’t sobbed myself to sleep for seven months. I was better in a month or a couple of weeks but it depends. There’s the trauma bonding type of relationships that are way harder to get over. Can you explain what trauma bonding is so I don’t flub it?

I’m not an expert in trauma bonding but I will give you my version of it. Trauma bonding is saying that two people have gone through experiences that were difficult, and then have bonded over those difficult experiences. An example of that is I have a client whose dad passed away, then her fiancé’s brother passed away. They bonded over how they both coped with those significant deaths in their life.

 

Technically, you could say that they were “trauma-bonded,” but it’s more about how you handle it moving forward. A lot of times when people say, “I’m trauma bonded to someone,” it makes them feel rather defeated as if that’s something outside of themselves and they can’t do anything about it, which is not necessarily true. It means, “I had a bond with someone over trauma just like I had a bond with someone over something that might not be trauma.” It doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to be harder to get over. It doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to get over. It means you’re going to do it a little bit differently than someone else.

That makes perfect sense to me. The way that I phrased it for myself, and correct me if I’m wrong, but from my trauma bonding, it was a traumatic relationship like an almost emotionally abusive relationship, and then we’d had those super high highs and the super low lows. We would bond together after we had the super low lows. We would have these lovey-lovey periods, this cycle of abuse that was going on. I feel like that was such a trauma to both him and me. I would say he’s at fault.

 

I’m trying to be diplomatic. It really was him. He would cheat or he would lie about something. I would leave, and then he would come chase after me. It was all these dramatics taking off, catching up to me with his car and laying on top of my car roof. I felt that trauma bonded us in a way and we couldn’t fucking let go of either of us. I would say, “I’m done with you.” I block him and then he would show up at my house and climb over the gate to try to get to me. I consider that a trauma bond.

It is fascinating because it’s cyclical. When you see cycles or a pattern like that, it’s interesting to look at it. Especially even retrospectively like you’ve been doing where it’s like, “Why did I stay in that cycle? What was I thinking? How was I feeling?” It has to do with the high highs and the low lows. The high highs are phenomenal high highs, but then the low lows are so dramatic, exhausting and tiresome.

When I talk about feelings, inside of my program, we do a lot of your feelings. When I talk about that, I talk about it as the roller coaster of emotions. I talk about it more so when you’re outside of the relationship, but it also applies when you’re inside of a relationship. If you’re tying your emotional well-being to somebody else, you’re going to experience a lot of high highs and low lows versus when you recognize that you create your own emotions based on what you’re thinking. It stays pretty steady and it stays in the middle.

I have them go through an exercise where I have them outlined. When I’m experiencing my high highs, why am I experiencing them? They start listing all of these reasons, “It’s because everything’s amazing. My life’s phenomenal. I love him so much. He loves me so much. Everything’s working out perfectly.” That would be creating their high highs, and then I would say, “What are the low lows being tied to? What externally do you think are creating the low lows? What thoughts are creating the low lows?” They would be like, “When he leaves, when he says he no longer wants to be with me or I saw something on Instagram, I’m experiencing the low lows because I’m thinking I’m never going to have that again. I wasn’t good enough. I wasn’t worthy enough,” or whatever it might be. I’m noticing that all of those thoughts are what creates the high highs and the low lows regardless of what he’s doing.

 

A way that I can explain that that’s outside of a relationship context is I did this at the beginning of my business. When I started my business a few years ago, I used to do consultation calls. I would feel extremely high and excited when someone was like, “I want to do this program. Let’s do it,” because I was tying my emotional well-being to the person saying yes. When they would say no, I would experience low lows. I would make it mean something about me when in reality, it had more to do with them.

I feel that’s a good example of seeing it outside of your relationship. If you are going through high highs and low lows, and are having a hard time explaining that or seeing that, that example gives you a little bit of insight as to it doesn’t have anything to do with you. It has everything to do with them and what they’re doing.

It’s easy to get trapped in the ego bait area. For example, one of the guys that I spoke with for a long time. He lives in New York so we weren’t ever together. We had a lot of love bombing going on throughout the course of our relationship. I met him in New York, and then he came to visit me one time and he’s very stoic. He’s a police officer. He doesn’t show emotion or talk about emotion well. He cared about me but I don’t think he was ready or prepared to ever make a move to move here or have me move there. He wanted me but he didn’t know how.

 

I told him “I have to stop talking to you. I’m not going to block you but I can’t be talking to you because every time I do, I get caught up again. We build this bond, and then it falls flat and I get upset, so stop.” A few days ago, he texted me and he was like, “Steph, how’s it going?” I’m like, “No.” He Snapchatted me. It was a picture of him. He does warrants or something so he was chasing bad guys, which is super cool.

He was in the patrol car. I didn’t answer it and I kept thinking to myself, “What will I get from answering this text? Will I get high out of it? Yes, I will. I’ll get that high of my ego. It’s feeling good. We’re going to flirt. He’s going to love bomb me for a couple of days, and then what’s going to happen? The same thing that always happens.” I’ve learned a lot from ego-trapping myself but it’s a hard lesson to learn.

You have to go through it. It’s not something that someone can explain to you, and then you don’t do it.

Do you think that timing has a lot to do with whether a relationship is successful or not?

 

The first thing I want to say is that almost all relationships are successful. By saying that they’re not, innately makes it so that you fail. If you say a relationship is successful, it opens up the door to say that a relationship is a failure, which then most people make it mean like, “I’m a failure,” which is not necessarily true. The first thing I want to address with that question is looking at what does success looks like to me. Does it mean that the relationship lasts forever? Does that truly have to be the definition of successful, even relationships that end?

The one that you described where it was the high highs and low lows was successful because you realized that pattern. That was important. Timing is important. That’s a hard yes. What’s even more important are intentions. What’s your intention for a relationship and what’s the other person’s intention for the relationship? That’s where timing comes into play. If someone’s in their early twenties, maybe their intention might not be to get married and have children, whereas your intention might be to be married and have children. It’s a timing thing but it’s more about intention and whether or not you both have the same intentions for the relationship. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. What I’ve been seeing a lot of lately is finally people are calling out romantic movies, romantic comedies and things like that on this illusion of the perfect timing, serendipity, and romanticizing all that stuff. When we look at that, we get sad because we’re like, “Why isn’t this happening to me?” These are actors but they are acting so well that you’re feeling all these emotions and you cry. There are movies that still make me cry to this day. I’m a Pisces. I cry about everything.

 

I look at it and I’m like, “This has me fucked up because I’m thinking I’m going to get some happy ending.” It doesn’t look like that. The intention has to be there. It’s not because some guy sees a girl and there’s a meet-cute and then all of a sudden, she takes off her glasses and chased her hair down and has this kiss-me moment.

Sometimes that reminds me of do you ever wish that you had background music playing in your life all the time? I so do.

Yes. Do you have a theme song?

I should. What would my theme song be?

 

You should definitely have a theme song. I feel like mine would be something from the early 2000s. Something neat like a Mandy Moore song like Candy. I would be walking down the street like Mandy Moore.

Based on the stories that I’ve seen of you, I can see that.

Let’s say your ex “moves on” super quickly. Maybe you don’t stalk him on social media. Maybe you hear about it through the Grapevine or you see a picture or you see them out and you see him with a girl. You’re like, “Why is he or she so easy to move on? Why am I still stuck here in this gray zone?” What do you have to say about that?

 

People’s action is always going to be fueled by the way that they feel. The way that they feel will always be created by their thinking. The way that I look at it is an ex will move on quickly based on what they’re thinking about themselves in their life and how they’re feeling. The best way to handle that situation is to decide something like a story that serves you.

When my ex moved on quickly after the end of our relationship, I made it mean that he was struggling. If you think about it, someone who goes into a relationship almost immediately after, number one, they might have been seeing that person before the relationship ended. They might have done a lot of the healing while still in the relationship.

Number two, a lot of times you’re hurting and it’s hard. You’re going through a lot of emotions. You’re feeling sad and devastated. You’re feeling like, “What happened?” Maybe if you’re the person who did the breaking up, you’re feeling regretful, remorseful or something like that. That would fuel finding comfort in someone else, trying to find comfort outside of yourself, seeking comfort within someone else. That’s the story that served me. It was believing that my ex moved on rather quickly because it was hard to get over me. That was the story that served me. Do I know if that’s true or not? No, I’ve never had a conversation with him to be like, “Why did you move on so quickly?”

 

You have to create your own narratives, is that what you’re saying?

Yes. Create your own narrative around it so that you can find peace and comfort in that and think about how you feel with that narrative. I 100% believe that people move on quickly because they’re having a hard time coping, and then that’s their way of coping.

Speaking of that, with sex, I have a follower and he’s sweet. He’s 24. He’s like, “Stephanie, I don’t know how to get over my ex. I’m sad. I don’t know what to do. I’ve tried going on dates but all I do is think about her.” I’m like, “You’re not ready to date if you’re thinking about her the whole time while you’re with this other person. Take some time for self-reflection. Take some time to heal. Immerse yourself in whatever you’re doing, and then go back out and try again. I’m not saying wait six months. I’m saying wait until you’re not thinking about her the whole time because you want to enjoy yourself. That’s miserable.”

One night, he was like, “I met this girl at the bar and she wants to hook up. She wants to have sex, so I think I’m going to hook up with her.” I was like, “Does that serve you?” He doesn’t seem the typical male that wants to sow his seed. He seems a little bit more introspective because he’s asking and seeking my advice. I told him, “Is that going to serve you? Once she leaves your bed, are you going to feel okay? Are you going to feel alone again or more alone?” Maybe that’s a little bit few and far between because most men in their early twenties are a little different than that. They’ll probably hop on to the next one. Let’s start with the early 20s versus the 30s. How do we deal with getting over someone, you get on top of someone. How do you feel about that whole thing?

 

I feel similar to the way that I feel about when people start dating. Is it time to start having sex? Is it time to start dating? My simple answer to that is looking at why. Why are you doing it? Are you doing it so that you can feel better? If that’s the case, I don’t recommend it. I recommend learning to generate your own emotions through your own thoughts. If you’re doing it because you genuinely want to go out, create connections, build relationships, and you have an intention behind it, go for it. Do it. Even if your intention is because you want to experience sex with multiple people, go for it. Do it but make sure you have an intention and not doing it in hopes to feel better.

In my twenties, I had this whole stage and I made a TikTok about it where I was my younger self and I was like, “I’ll have sex with him and then he’ll love me.” The reality is that’s nothing to do with it. I had girls as young as 13 and 16 comment on it and they were like, “I wish I had known this.” I’m like, “Thirteen?” I lost my virginity to my fiancé at the time when I was nineteen. I know now that they’re having sex younger but I’m like, “Can someone talk to these young women? This makes me sad. I don’t want them to think that.”

 

I’m going to talk about the block button because this is something that I am not great about because immediately when someone fucks up bad, I will block their ass quicker than Yosemite Sam. I am like, “Block on everything.” I want to know your thoughts on that because I feel like it’s a little bit of my wounded masculine coming through like, “I’m going to put this wall up and you can’t fuck with me ever again.” I don’t even give it the time to possibly heal. I just say, “Fuck you,” and I’m done and out. I don’t know if I’m doing the right thing.

There’s a time and a place for that. When a boundary violation has taken place, meaning they’ve done something that violates a boundary for you. It makes sense to block someone. If someone’s physically threatening you or something along those lines, I’m like, “Yes, block.” If you are having a terrible time trying to allow your urges like what we were talking about before, go ahead block it.

Where I like to help people get to is to a place where they are no longer at the effect of other people. Their emotional well-being isn’t at the effect of other people and when it comes to the urge to check social media, I want you to be able to have social media there. I want you to be able to not have to block that person and still not have the desire to check.

 

Another example of this is people who struggle with binge eating. I have a colleague who coaches people with binge eating. It’s the same type of thing where you can take all of the binge foods out of the house so that way, you don’t binge eat or you can learn how to reduce your desire for binge eating and have the foods there, and not be at the effect of the foods. It’s like that where there’s a time and a place to use the block button and it’s an amazing tool. How beautiful is that and I love that. There are other times where it’s like, “Am I doing this because I don’t want to take emotional responsibility?”

I’m talking more about not just social media blocking. I’m talking about text, email or any sort of thing because I almost want to build this fortress of, “If I can’t hear them or see them, then I won’t be as bad.” It’s like that to me but then after a while, I feel I can unblock them. Right at that point in time, I feel I need to take all of the control and I don’t know if that’s a control freak thing.

It depends on the situation because, at some point, I love that you love taking control of your life. That’s beautiful because some people are like, “I don’t have control over it.” You do have a block button, so you do have control over it, but where’s the line between that versus reacting to anger or reacting to a strong negative emotion?

For those that get that extreme sense of loss, that depression that you can’t get out of bed, you’re not eating, you’re not sleeping, and it’s affecting your work, especially at nighttime. At nighttime, those thoughts come rushing in. What do you recommend as some self-soothing techniques to get you through that initial period of extreme loss and depression?

 

There are so many things I could recommend. My number one tool that is amazing for this is the grief bubble. It’s recognizing there’s this big huge bubble of emotions. It’s not just one. It’s devastation, loss, betrayal, anger and resentment. You have so many overwhelming emotions that you physically feel paralyzed. What I recommend people to do in those situations is number one, recognize that it’s going to not last forever.

Number two, explore it all. Write down all of your feelings. For each feeling, do a little line that points over here, and then you write down, “What’s creating that emotion for me?” You have a list of feelings and a list of thoughts that are creating those feelings and recognizing that those are optional beliefs that you’re choosing to believe, and then releasing them through embracing those emotions. Recognizing they’re not there to harm you or to be there forever. They’re there to give you indicators that you cared about someone deeply and that is okay. It’s totally 100% normal for you to feel devastation, loss and all of that.

Another tool that I like is called release writing. It’s so good. You grab a journal and a pen, and you ask yourself, “If this emotion could speak or if this emotion could talk, what would it say?” You write and allow yourself to write until your energy shifts. You can write fast or you can write slow but you’re not going to reread it. You just need to write and write, and then once your energy shifts, you take it, rip it up, throw it away and wash your hands. It’s a complete emotional shift in such a short timeframe. I love it.

I prefer burning it but don’t do that at home. Do it outside. We’re not liable for any pyromaniacs that may be reading this. Thank you.

It’s funny that you say that because we do a funeral for your ex since you have to decide, whether or not you want to do cremation or bury it. Every time, I’m like, “Please be careful with your burnings.”

I did something similar. I wrote one letter about everything I was angry about, one letter for everything I was thankful for, and one letter of forgiveness. I burned the angry one. I didn’t keep the other ones and I didn’t send them anywhere. I just tossed them. I burned the anger because I was like, “This is symbolic. I need to let go of these feelings.”

 

With that particular one, I did hold on to anger a lot because I was in a car wreck. I don’t know if you knew that. The man who was driving was the guy that I was dating. I held anger for him even though we weren’t together. We weren’t going to get married, have a family or whatever. I was so fucking pissed because this mother fucker decided not to pay attention when we were in Mexico. We were driving down the road in a deathtrap. Airbags didn’t work. Any lock brakes weren’t working. The steering column, I could tell, was not secure.

He says there was an animal in the road. There was no animal on the road. He was looking at his phone and he swerved. He hit into the median and the car flipped 3 or 4 times. Ever since then, I’ve had excruciating hip and back pain on top of already injuries that I’ve had previously. Every time I feel pain in my back, I would get angry at him. It was hard for my grief period to let him go because I was over him but I was not over my anger.

I ended up having to do something unconventional. I’m wondering your opinion on it. I went to this spiritual store and they have all different kinds of charms, spells, candles and ritualistic stuff. They suggested that I do a cord-cutting ceremony and it worked. It was a candle that was scissors and it had a twofold wick. They told me to carve his name, what happened, my pain, and everything that was bothering me into this candle. They gave me a special oil to put on top of the candle and then I burned it. I’ll get upset every once in a while but my extreme anger for this dude is gone.

Anger was the hardest thing for me to let go too. I spent a year googling how to forgive and let go, how to get over your ex and I did all of it. I meditated. I got in the best shape of my life. I traveled. Still, the hardest part for me at least is there’s so much anger and resentment. That was the last thing for me to release.

I know you’ve done all the work but how do you forgive when your ex has done you so wrong? It’s different for everybody but what is the first step to forgiving someone? That is a way to heal for yourself, not for him. You don’t need to forgive him for him or her. You need to forgive him for yourself.

I took an analytical approach to forgiveness. I was like, “What is forgiveness? What is the definition of forgiveness?” The definition of forgiveness was letting go of anger and resentment. When I realized that, I was like, “All that means is I have to let go of feeling angry and resentful, then that means I’ve forgiven.” When I realized and recognized that my feeling angry and resentful towards him didn’t create any negative emotion for him, I was mind-blown.

I thought that if I held on to the anger and the resentment, he would feel something. I felt I was doing something to him when I wasn’t letting go of the anger and resentment, but I was the only one feeling and experiencing that, which was only hindering me in my human experience. When I recognized that, it helped me forgive and let go because the only reason I’m forgiving is so that I can let go of anger and resentment so that I don’t have to experience anger and resentment, and then it’s done. It’s like, “Holy buckets. This is for me, not for him.”

What do you do when you have the same friend group? When you break up with someone and your friends are like, “I saw Greg posted this,” and you’re like, “Can you fucking not tell me about what Greg posted?” What do you do when you are in the same friend group? Do you set boundaries with your friends? Do you pull them aside one by one individually and be like, “Greg and I still want to be friends with all of you. I don’t want it to be awkward for you but these are my boundaries?” Is that what you would recommend doing?

Yes and no. I don’t normally do that or I advise my clients not to do that until it becomes a problem. Sometimes it’s not a problem. Friends handle it great, it’s not an issue, everything works out and it’s awesome. Other times, there are issues where people will bring up stuff like you were talking about and you have two options at that point. You can either have the conversation about it and being like, “Here are my boundaries.”

A boundary to me isn’t necessarily telling them what to do. It’s telling people what you will do if they do something. It would be more of a conversation of like, “If you bring this person up, I will remove myself from the situation.” Meaning, I will leave and not spend time with you. A lot of times when you explain yourself to your friends what you’re going through and why you would rather not hear about what was going on with that person, they’re usually understanding. If they aren’t, then they’re probably not the type of human being you want to spend a lot of your time with anyways.

That also brings me to the whole realm of, “Should I remain friends with my ex?” I am very neutral about this. I feel it can work. I’ve seen it work but do you have the same interests? You can even apply that to the friend group like, “Were you only friends with them because they were your ex-boyfriend’s friends or do you have similar interests and you truly genuinely enjoy doing what it is they do?” A lot of times if you ask yourself that question, you’ll be like, “That’s not what I loved to do.”

It reminds me of fantasy football. I was super into fantasy football with my ex and as soon as that was done, my colleagues were like, “Do you want to do fantasy football?” I was like, “Not really. I thought I did but I did that because my ex-boyfriend did it. Now that I’m not dating him, I don’t see myself sitting down on a Sunday and watching football.”

I like watching football but I don’t want to have to pay so much attention to it that it’s going to detract me for the rest of my day. I don’t care about it that much. I love sports and all. There have been situations where, with the friend group thing, when something jarring has happened like they cheated or whatever, I feel like that’s hard because you’re sick. You almost don’t even want to be around them. That happened to me.

It was this one guy who never came back that I was telling you about, all of his friends chose me. To this day, even his guy friends that were his fraternity brothers, I was in both of their weddings as a bridesmaid and he doesn’t talk to them anymore. None of them chose him. All the girls, all the guys, I still talk to them. This was in 2009 that we broke up.

Did they continually bring him up though or did they never talk about him?

Every once in a while, they’ll be like, “He’s this and that. He got a DUI,” but it’ll be stuff that wasn’t good, and then they’re like, “Did you know that he had a baby?” I’m like, “I heard that. I’m happy for him. Great.” I don’t care. I don’t know exactly the facts but he was definitely being sketchy. Whatever it was, I knew that I didn’t want to be around him or a spot where he was.

At first, I was desperate to get in touch with him because the way he broke up with me was that he left in the middle of the night and never broke up with me. Technically, we’re still together. He never answered one phone call after he left during the night. That’s a douchebag way to break up with someone. Just face the person and be like, “I don’t want to be with you.” I’d prefer that over you disappearing.

This is a great question. Is there a good way to break up?

No, I don’t think there’s a good way but there are better ways. I would say being upfront is the best way to be. Maybe this is an unpopular opinion but I don’t think breaking up in person is a good idea. It’s a terrible idea. I don’t think breaking up in public is a good idea. I don’t think breaking up in person is a good idea because, at the end of the day, you’re going to have to leave each other. You have to go your separate ways. I’m not sure about the text but a phone call is warranted because at least they deserve that.

If you’re in the same place physically, the other person is either going to walk off and you’re not going to get to finish what you’re going to say, and then it’s up in the air or it’s going to be dramatic. They’re going to cry, scream, do whatever. They’re going to accuse you of stuff. It’s going to be ugly or they’ll be like, “Don’t leave. No, please,” then it’s hard to leave one another. At least, when you’re on the phone, you can hang up the phone after the conversation and be in your own space, and have that downtime to absorb what happened.

I was so hung up on the idea that my ex broke up with me on the phone. “I was home last week. I’m going to be home in a week and you’re breaking up with me on the phone. This is insane.” When I did so much thought work on it, I was like, “It makes sense as to why he broke up with me on the phone because I was that crazy person who would be like, ‘We’re not breaking up. I can’t hear you. I’m not leaving.'” My rule of thumb is to treat someone the way you want to be treated. If you could curate the best possible breakup for you, how would you do that? Show up in a way that you can feel proud of and that you have respect for yourself and that’s the best you can do.

This whole concept of you need to meet them up in person and tell them in person is not right. I don’t know who came up with those rules.

I talk about breakup rules where it’s like, “There’s no rulebook.” There is no book of rules that says, “This is how a breakup is supposed to go.” I see this all the time where they’re like, “If it wouldn’t have been so messy, it would have been great.” I have other people who are like, “If it would have been messier, it would have been easier.” The grass is always greener on the other side.

With all of my breakups, the extreme ghosting to where you were living with me, and then the next morning, you and your stuff were gone, that’s probably not the best option because then I’m blowing you the fuck up. I’m like, “Where are you? Do you want to go have brunch?” I had no idea. I thought he just had to leave. He didn’t have that much stuff. He wasn’t living with me. He had a couple of things. I was like, “He took his laundry. I wonder what he’s doing for brunch,” and then I never heard from him again.

It’s because he couldn’t face me and he didn’t have to face me. He could have texted even at that point and he could have been, “I’m over it.” I would’ve been like, “Okay.” Maybe I would have had a breakdown, but at least I would have heard from him. How do you know if you are fighting for someone you love and who loves you versus fighting for someone to love you?

My question for that person would be, do I feel loved no matter what my partner feels and experiences? Am I feeling loving feelings in the relationship regardless of what he or she is doing or not doing and how that other person is showing up?

Maybe if we can bring up a hypothetical, let’s say they’re going through a hard time. They had a death in the family. Their parent passed away and they are retreating into themselves. You know they need support but they don’t know how to express it. You have had a great relationship up until then, but you’re not feeling the love from him currently because all of his emotion is in this grief. What do you do at that point?

At that moment, you could still choose to feel loved no matter what he’s doing. Even if he’s going through a hard time, you’re going to feel love if you’re having loving thoughts. You could be having loving thoughts about him and how he’s going through a hard time. “I know he still loves me. I know he still cares about me. He’s struggling. He’s going through this. That’s totally fine.” You’re feeling and experiencing love because those are the thoughts that you choose. I’m assuming you would stop feeling love if you sound like you’re questioning whether or not the other person loves them.

A lot of the time, people have the love languages like quality time and words of affirmation. If they’re not getting that, then they’re going to question whether they’re loved if that’s their language.

I have a hard time because I feel medium about love languages.

I believe in the basic concept because I know that there are people that I have loved in my way that don’t receive that love in that same way and we didn’t translate. When I learned that, I feel my relationships even with friends were not successful.

It’s a good tool in your toolbox but not something that you should rely on. People don’t need to show up in that way for you to experience love. I love this question about fighting for love and fighting for something because it comes up all the time. When I think about a relationship, I love the hypothetical you brought up because it’s one that I haven’t explored too much.

I explore it from a place of like, “Why do we need to fight for relationships?” It’s something that we were told and taught growing up. It’s like, “Relationships are hard. You have to compromise and you have to fight for them.” I question that. Is that true that we have to fight for relationships? Do we want to be fighting for relationships? I want a relationship that’s natural and organic, and that we don’t have to fight for something. It just happens. It doesn’t mean that it’s always easy or that we never argue or have disagreements, but it’s not something that we have to fight to keep alive.

The example that you gave was eye-opening because it’s like, “What happens in an extreme example of where someone dies and they’re going through a hard time?” If I was in that situation, I would show up knowing and feeling that I love this person and they’re just going through a hard time. Maybe that hard time is going to last 3 months, 6 months, 1 year. How long am I down to be in a relationship like this is up to me. In the meantime, I’m going to show up as a loving, beautiful, amazing and supportive partner, knowing that my partner loves me dearly regardless of what he’s going through.

What if they’re shutting down on you? What if they’re like, “I can’t right now.” That happens because they’re in grief or reclusive. Do you respect that boundary and like, “Let me know whatever you need?”

It depends on what you want to do. For me personally, I would want to show up in a way that aligns with the partner that I would want in that situation. Even if I was shutting down, I would want my partner to still check in with me. At least for me, when I’m shutting down or I’m upset if someone else retreats from me, it only makes it worse.

It’s the same for me but men are so different.

You have to show up as the best version of yourself and know that you did everything that you believe you should have and feel proud of.

It’s a fine line. I feel you have to question what the other person’s motives are. Would they do the same for you in the same situation?

Would you want them to do the same for you?

Something that we haven’t covered that is important for a lot of our readers is people with kids because kids result from these relationships. What are you doing if you have this toxic ex-relationship that you constantly are bickering and fighting? It’s terrible for the kid. You don’t get along. Sometimes you do have to talk business. You have to talk about the house. You’re talking about the kids’ schedule. Whatever it is, you do have to talk. How do you set the boundary for them to freaking listen to you? I went through this with my ex. She would not stop. Between you and me and all my readers, he was a little bit still allowing her to step over the boundary. Let’s not talk about him. Let’s talk about it in general. How do you set that boundary for an ex that you have children with to make it as healthy as possible?

When we’re talking about boundaries, we have to revisit the fact that we can’t control humans. We can’t control other people. I wish we could. I tried all the things. I promise you. If I knew how to do it, I would sell it for a lot of money. When we think about that, we have to come to a conclusion of, how do I want to show up regardless of what my ex does or doesn’t do, even when it comes to kids? What do I think is most important for my child here? How do I want to show up regardless of what my ex does or doesn’t do, and getting clear about that? What do I need to think and believe about myself to feel the way I need to feel, to show up in a way that I’m proud of and can feel confident about?

I talked about redefining your relationship with your ex, specifically when it comes to you having children and you’re redefining it into a co-parenting relationship. What kind of co-parent do you want to be? We can’t control him or her. We can’t control your ex but we can control what kind of co-parent I want to be. That includes interacting with someone who might be irrational or doing things you don’t want them to do or not listening to you, or whatever that might be.

How does that co-parent that I want to become show up in situations like that? Is it so extreme that I need to get a third party involved? Do I set a certain boundary that if you show up this way in front of the children, I take the children? What is that and what does that look like? You have to define what kind of co-parent you want to be. Recognize that you have no control over how that other person is or receives your information, or whether or not they listen to you.

Dorothy says, “You can’t control your ex.” There are no puppet strings. You control yourself. That’s it. It’s all you can do. You have to decide what is best for your kid. I feel like a lot of the time people get caught up with trying to control their ex or manipulate their ex using their kid. That is where the saddest part of it is. It’s easy to be petty in a situation like that. You’re like, “I’m not going to bring Lisa for dinner.” Don’t do that shit. Be the bigger person is the advice. Let me get you a couple more questions. How to deal when she breaks up with you to date girls? How do you feel about that?

I feel completely fine about that. My first question is, why is that a problem? What are you making it mean about you? What’s the issue here in recognizing that that is an optional story you’re telling yourself? Are you making it mean something negative about you like, “I wasn’t man enough for her?” I have no idea what you might be making them back mean.

I have no context. I don’t know this person. You’re right. To me, it’s like saying, “What if she dates up with me to date another man?” It’s the same thing to me. This one’s interesting. How often should we re-evaluate our relationships to determine whether or not we should break up?

I evaluate my relationships every six months. This all formed when I left my relationship to be single for a little bit and started finding a new relationship because I realized we didn’t have the same wants. I loved this man. He was cool and an amazing guy. We had a lot of the same interests and everything was going well. I very much liked him and he was amazing.

What I started to recognize is that we didn’t have the same desires in life. We didn’t have the same wants, which is what we call a want match. Meaning, we didn’t want the same things. When you start doing that, it feels hard and you start trying to compromise. I didn’t want him to compromise himself and I didn’t want to compromise myself just so that we could be in a relationship together. To me, that didn’t sit well.

I didn’t want him to change himself and I didn’t want to change myself, but I didn’t want to live in a relationship where we were separate and independent that it felt like we weren’t in a relationship. I felt like I was single but I wasn’t getting the benefits of being single. It was such a weird dynamic. I was like, “If that’s the case, what do I want?”

I made a list of my wants, a.k.a a list of qualities that you would like in a partner. I formulated questions that correlated with each of those wants to ask that on dates 2 or 3 to start asking those questions to see if they genuinely wanted those same things that I wanted, which is super fun and hilarious to experience.

Once I did that, I ended up finding a partner who wanted all of the same wants and we started dating. We hit about the six-month mark. I went through that same list again seeing the behavior that he has elicited in the last six months, does it still match this? Is this still true for him? Does it seem he truly still wants the same wants as me? I went through that list and it was all still exactly what I thought. I’m like, “I’m going to do this every six months. I’m going to re-evaluate. Do we still want the same wants? If not, that’s totally fine. That doesn’t have to be a problem. Do I want to be with someone who doesn’t want the same wants, yes or no?” That will help evaluate every milestone of the relationship.

Does he know that you do this?

Yes, he does. In the beginning, I loved questions. I love asking people questions, getting to know them. It’s fun for me. He thought I just like asking questions. I would pull some questions from the internet but then I also pulled questions that were specific to my list and sprinkle them in to make it not as obvious. As we got to know each other, I was like, “I had a list of wants because I want this relationship to be easeful, organic and natural. I don’t want you to change your wants because of what I want. I don’t want to change my wants because of what you want.” I shared it with him. We were out for dinner and I was like, “I went through the list again and we still want the same things.”

He probably knows that you are analytical from your profession. He’s got to know that.

He knows the whole thoughts create feeling stuff. We have conversations about these things.

I don’t have a physical list but when I pull out my mental list of boundaries and set them forth to a potential suitor, they’re like, “What the fuck is this?” I’m like, “These are my boundaries. Mother fucker, if you don’t like them, there’s the door.” I’m dead serious. I’m like, “You will not step over these boundaries. I will not have it.” I’m done with people walking all over me. I keep having hope that he’s going to change his mind. I assume that this means that he’s going to change his mind about the breakup. Is this bad? It’s bad for her mental health. What do you think?

I don’t feel it’s a bad thing unless you’re using it against yourself. Assume he’s going to change his mind because you’re going to up-level, be amazing, gorgeous, and live a life that’s bigger and better than the one that you had with your ex. At some point, he’s going to change his mind. If you’re going to play with that, if you’re going to dabble in it, go all in and dive in that he’s absolutely going to change his mind. What are you going to do in the meantime? It’s time to get to work and become the best version of yourself so if he does come back, you are a different person and you don’t have the same relationship that you had with him before.

Does that inhibit you though from potentially moving on to find another person?

 

Not if you’re doing it the right way. Not if you’re getting over your ex and reducing the desire for your ex because then you won’t be so attached to that one person. Speaking of manifestation, you won’t be attached to trying to manifest your ex back. You’re trying to manifest your committed partnership of a healthy relationship. If you’re truly doing that, you can still have the belief that my ex has always changed their mind and they always come back, but that doesn’t mean that I want them back.

This particular woman is saying, “I keep having hope he’s going to come back.” She’s waiting for him. That’s the gist that I’m getting here. I would say to her, “Don’t sit and wait for him. Prepare yourself for his arrival as if the aliens were coming. What would you do when the aliens arrive? How would you look? When the aliens arrive, don’t you want to look your best?”

That’s what I’m saying. If you go all-in on believing that he’s absolutely going to come back, then you would be doing your work to become the best version of yourself. If you truly love someone, that’s what you want. You want them to have the best version of the person they’re dating.

Why after a breakup does the other person try to keep the relationship or keep trying to call you, keep in touch, have sex with you or things like that? Why do they do that?

I have such a hard time with one-faced questions because I have questions that I want to ask the other person.

I know it’s hard. I’m trying to give the people what they need here. For me, it’s the typical. They still want to feel loved without any pressure of being in a relationship.

I would think, “Why would you do this?” If I broke up with someone and stayed in contact with them and still tried to have sex with them, why would I be doing that? I would be doing that because I’m afraid to let them go. They’re afraid to feel the feelings that come along with heartbreak that you’re still going to have to go through even if you’re the person breaking up. I’m assuming that’s why they would be doing that. They’re having a hard time letting go too. Set the boundary.

This is dealing with a breakup due to gender transition and I asked her to go into it. She said, “Dealing with a breakup that was caused by my gender transition for a long time made me feel that being trans was negative because it’s hard not to equate it with the loss of a six-year relationship with the person that you love so much. My last breakup still feels like I haven’t been able to get back into dating because of it.” It’s all over the place a little bit but she was upset when she was texting. Poor thing.

Tell me if I’m wrong because you’re the expert. That information is a lot. You’re in a relationship for six years, even if you love that person, as a person who is in the wrong gender and you identify as a woman when you were born a male, you have an understanding. You’ve lived with it probably for years. You get it that that person that you’re with for six years that is blindsided by that information might have trouble processing it. Am I right?

That makes a lot of sense. On the other side of that is making sure that you don’t take that person’s reaction to that information personally. That’s more about them and figuring themselves out. It has nothing to do with you, your worth, your enoughness or even your lovability. When someone says that they can’t love you, it has nothing to do with your lovability and everything to do with their capacity to love. Making sure that you’re not taking how they’re reacting to the information that you’re relaying personally about yourself is important.

That’s a tough one. I can’t even imagine going through something like that. It feels like people’s love for you would either be stronger or it goes away completely. That must be disheartening to go through as a trans woman or man. I love that girl. She’s awesome. We’ve been following each other. She shares her highs and her lows. I’m proud of her for being out and being herself. Dorothy, this has been one of the most insightful episodes I’ve ever had. I feel like we’ve had a therapy session. Thank you so much. I want to ask you, was the breakup from a few years ago caused you to get into this realm?

Yes.

I thought so because you were like, “I want to help other people deal with all this shit.”

There was so much information online and none of it worked. I was caught off guard by how much information was online that wasn’t valid. There was a completely new way to do it, which was the way that I have found but it took me a year and a half to find it and figure it all out. I wanted to save people time because time has nothing to do with getting over your ex. It doesn’t take time to heal your heart. Time has nothing to do with it and that’s the number one thing I heard.

All these things that I was hearing on how to handle it weren’t true. I felt someone needed to come out and say all of these things. I also remember searching podcasts on how to get over your ex and I could not find anything. I remember promising myself that if I ever got through getting over my ex, I was going to be the person to start that podcast. That’s why I got the podcast and named it How To Get Over Your Ex. It was such a beautiful transition.

Your podcast should be called Don’t Slash His Tires. When I was engaged to my now ex-husband, he wouldn’t let me in the house. I gently tapped the garage with my car. To this day, his fraternity brothers will not let it go. They’re like, “Do you remember when you crashed your car into the house?” I was like, “It was a gentle tap.”

I love your mannerisms, that’s why I love your stories. Your mannerisms and the way you say it, I love it.

I was dramatic. I was twenty years old and I thought the world revolved around who I was with and a man defined me as a woman. I was like, “You better have me in the house or I’m going to kill myself. I’m going to blow up your house.” I didn’t even mean any of it. I was talking out my ass. You have the 3 Months or Less. This process is a three-step process. Can you tell me a little bit about it?

I share all my things. It’s Get Over Your Ex in 3 Months or Less. We spend the first four weeks learning how to feel feelings, which is important. You’ve got to feel the heartbreak, you’ve got to experience the grief, the loss, the devastation, the anger and the betrayal. You’ve got to get comfortable feeling those discomforts. Comfortable feeling uncomfortable and learning how to not react to your emotions. It was a huge reactor to my emotions even gently tapping a garage.

The second portion of that is creating closure. It’s learning to rebuild your confidence, your worthiness, your enoughness, all of that. Building that relationship with yourself, and then rewriting your breakup story in a way that’s empowering. It leaves you feeling fired, good and amazing. The last section is focused on getting excited about your future. It’s not just about getting over your ex. It’s about building a life that’s bigger and better than the one that you had with your ex. We go out and we do that. We create a life that your ex regrets leaving but you’re all the way to the point where it doesn’t even matter.

Have you had many clients where you get a phone call and they’re like, “He’s back.”

It happens all the time.

Are you like, “Don’t you dare? Don’t do it.”

Half of the time, I always let them make their decision because they know what’s best for them. A lot of times, they’ve naturally outgrown the place that they were at with that person. They’re like, “I have now created a life that’s much better that I want a partner that matches that.” Sometimes they’re like, “I want to give it a second try,” and they feel good about that.

That’s cool that you’ve given them the tools to make those decisions. I feel like I was left to my own devices and I had to learn all of these things on my own by listening to podcasts, listening to people like you. I had to vet people. You can’t just read whatever is on the internet. Some people will tell you to go slash tires. You’ve got to vet people and see that they know what they’re talking about. As you said, the internet is like, “The half-life of your relationship is how long, divided by 16, times 2 and that’s when you’ll get over him.”

I remember that rule and I was devastated. I was like, “Bitch, I don’t have fucking three and a half years to get over that.”

One more question for you. This is a question I ask everybody on the show. You were walking down the street and you saw your twenty-year-old self walking towards you. You give her a big hug and squeeze her. You embrace her and looked at her. If you could tell her one piece of advice, what would that be?

Keep falling madly in love.

That’s beautiful. I’m not crying, you’re crying.

I would tell her to keep falling madly in love because the deeper in love with that person that she was falling in love with. I had to be so deep in love with that man to be so heartbroken until I get to the place that I’m at now and I’m grateful. It’s created a relationship with myself that is untouchable. No one can fuck with the relationship that I have with me and I love it.

I love the energy. That’s how I feel too. It sucks though because I am truly a giver. I am such a lover and I give of myself so much. I’ve had to be careful of the love-bombing stuff. As a side note, I get that a lot. It’s not just “I love you,” specifically but it’ll be like, “Stephanie, I could see myself with you forever. I want to put a baby in you. I could spend forever looking into your eyes.” It’s that type of stuff. I get that a lot because I feel I elicit strong reactions from people, either they fucking hate me or they super love me. Guys tend to do that with me and I’m such a romantic that I get so caught up, and then I have to grieve over a breakup where I wasn’t even with the person. I wasn’t even together with him.

It’s like a situationship.

Even someone I hadn’t even met. It’s like someone that I met on Instagram. We had a situationship. For a year, we talked every day. We talked on the phone. We FaceTime, “I love you,” and whatever. It doesn’t work out, and then I’m grieving something that I wasn’t even in. I don’t know if I regret wanting to believe in that love.

You don’t need to regret it. Regret is optional and sometimes it’s not even necessary.

I know I need to take words at face value. Words are not a contract, they’re just words. You have to go by actions. I know these things innately but thank you for validating me. I feel like it’s okay for me to keep falling in love. I love what you said.

I love falling in love. Love is always an option. It’s always the best option.

I fell in love with you so there’s that. Thank you so much, Dorothy, for your time. This has been insightful. It’s going to help so many people. Even my sister who has been married for many years was like, “I can’t wait to listen to that one.” I’m like, “Great.”

Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it. It’s such an honor. I love your work.

I wish you all the best. Tell me what I can do to support you, anytime you need anything. I always share your resources but if there’s anything that I or my audience do to support you, let me know.

Thank you. You are amazing. I appreciate you.

Big kisses and hugs. I will see you soon.

It sounds great. Bye.

Bye, Dorothy.

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That’s a wrap for The Luxury Dropout. I hope you learned a lot from Dorothy. I know I did. There’s so much insight, thought-provoking subject matter. No matter where you are in your relationship, there’s always room for improvement. My big takeaway was to re-evaluate the relationship every six months and make sure it’s still serving you. That was neat. If you’re reading on a streaming platform, go ahead and leave me that five-star review. I would love to hear from you. I’m glad that you’re here. Remember, until next time, you are loved. Stay safe and I will see you in the next one.

Important Links:

• Dorothy Johnson
• Get Over Your Ex
• When your ex comes back – Past episode on How to Get Over Your Ex
• How do you stop stalking his social media – Past episode on How to Get Over Your Ex
• How To Get Over Your Ex
• Instagram – Stephanie Joplin
• https://TheLifeCoachSchool.com/certified-coach/breakup-coach-dorothy/

About Dorothy Johnson

Getting over your ex has nothing to do with “time” or “taking it day by day.” I teach my clients how to get over your ex and build a life BETTER than the one you had with your ex in 3 months or less by addressing the root cause instead of heartbreak symptoms. We use a simple 3 step process to heal your heart, create closure, and get excited about your future again.